General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
How long do they take?
The average is probably just over an hour per encounter.
-How many players do you play with?
5
How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
This varies quite a bit from session to session. I think the average is around 30%.
Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
No
-Do you change any of the rules?
Oh Yes !
__________________ "Dark and Empty" Ed Greenwood.
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However, note the subsequent clarification which you didn't quote for some reason. Do your players make a "background" for their characters? Do they care what place in the world their character "comes from"? Is the character's race taken as anything more than a packet of stat bonuses and special abilities? Could you have a character that is "afraid of fire"? Or that "hates dwarves", or has a mortal enemy from his past, or anything like that?
Excellent series of posts, and for the most part I do not see much of a difference in our games.
As a DM the reason I like backgrounds is because it takes some of the creative burden off myself. After years, many of the campaigns start to look alike. I like to get the characters to chip in with some of the creativity, because it adds fresh new material to the game.
As a player sometime I find myself wondering... what if I were to side with the bad guys or monsters? I really don't like this town of the people in it. A background tie-in sometimes helps to change that perception.
__________________ "Democracy must be something more than two gnolls and an elf voting on what to have for dinner."
Well the rest are 5th level but I have only got a character to 2nd. I DM more often, though I am hoping that will change
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Originally Posted by jenskot
-How long do you play for?
3 to 4 hours usually.
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Originally Posted by jenskot
-How many combats do you play?
1 to 3 depends on time and what else is going on
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Originally Posted by jenskot
-How long do they take?
Dunno really at a guess, 30min to an hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How many players do you play with?
5 in group in total. So the players can be from 3 to 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
Not a roleplay heavy group so less than in combat with quite a bit of time spent on off game stuff also. We do not take things too seriously.
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Originally Posted by jenskot
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Not really, a boardgame usually has a meaurable final outcome and winners and loosers and it is often fairly obvious where one is in the pecking order. So in, despite, the grid and its effects, D&D does not feel boardgamey to me.
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Originally Posted by jenskot
-Do you change any of the rules?
Not deliberately though mistakes in interpetation have occured.
Depends on the campaign. I'll choose Rappacion, my 15th level Hexblade (which is a Beastmaster Ranger re-fluffed so that the Hunter's Quarry is a "Hex" and his Beast is actually his Dark Companion from the ol' 3.5 PHB2.)
Rappacion isn't seeing any play tonight due to Mother's Day.
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-How long do you play for?
About 4-5 hours, once per week, with some stuff done by e-mail (minor RP stuff)
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-How many combats do you play?
Varies by session, but on average I'd say 2-3
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-How long do they take?
Also varies...probably on average, maybe 45 minutes to an hour. Longer if it's an epic battle (pauses for dialogue, changes in terrain/venue, chase scenes, etc.)
[qoute]-How many players do you play with?[/quote]
3 players, plus a DMPC and some other random NPC helpers.
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-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
What else are you doing outside of combat? Seriously, though, probably about 2/12 hours, making the session about half and half. Although we RP during combat, too.
For example, another player is playing a Dark Pact Warlock, so we've both changed the fluff of our powers to reflect that we use "darkness" from the Shadowfell in our powers. So the Warlock will sometimes suck the darkness out of my Dark Companion to empower her spells, my Hexblade will grab the Warlock's missed attacks with my weapon and launch it back at the target. Kind of anime-ish, but good fun!
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-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Some combats definitely have that feel. For me, it's not a bad thing; it allows more room for in-combat RP. I do have to remind myself that I can use skills and what-not as well as powers.
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-Do you change any of the rules?
Oh, heck yes. I haven't been in a D&D game in my life that hasn't been houseruled in some way or another, and this campaign is certainly no exception.
-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?
Personally, I try to sneak roleplay in and out of combat. It's hard to tell with the group. However long is "appropriate", like the duration of an encounter. We haven't had any incidences of someone engaging in "extra-curricular" roleplay, which I define as roleplay outside the objectives of an adventure. Ex. Going to the tavern and mingling with the wenches while the group continues on their quest in the Catacomb of Black-Shadowed Doomie Doom.
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
No.
-Do you change any of the rules?
No.
__________________ "It is important to keep in mind that, after all is said and done, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a game. Because it is a game, certain things which seem "unrealistic" or simply unnecessary are integral to the system."
- Gary Gygax, AD&D Player's Handbook 1st Edition
Last edited by Androlphas; 11th May 2009 at 12:59 AM..
We've been playing around 9 months. We're 8th level. Combat is fun but with 5 players, even using power cards, seems to take around an hour per combat. It seems when we play 1 combat, it's way too easy. We have so many healing surges and all our dailies. But when we play 3 combats, 4e seems to really shine with action points, milestones, dailies and by the 3rd encounter things feel really dramatic like they can go either way. But with a 4 hour session, that leaves very little room for roleplaying.
Additionally, with the tactics so focused on teamwork (which I think is very cool) there is a pressure not to mess around. It might be funny to act in character and do something dramatic but non-tactical but if that means screwing up what the team is trying to do, it feels like you are hurting everyone.
We've thought about many ways to hack the game to make combats run faster and have it be fun with only 1-2 combats. Cut Monster hit points down, up their damage, lower PC healing surges and so on. But before messing with the rules, I wanted to see what playing 4e was like for all of you, especially if you are playing 4e without hacks.
Thanks everyone!
-John
I don't play 4E anymore... I quit because the sessions were like slow-motion trips to the dentist.
Now, before anyone discriminates against me by saying that a 35-year old can't learn new rules, I learn new wargames all the time. I'm good with rules. I just don't like a ton of rules in my role playing anymore than I want a ton of dill pickles in my chocolate ice cream.
4E feels like a tactical wargame to me. The problem with that is, there are some excellent tactical wargames out there, like Field of Glory from Osprey. If we're just going to be pushing pieces around a board and talking about hitting and damage, I'd rather be refighting Asculum or Kynoskephaloi.
__________________ "I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
Group 1: 8ish hours per session every 1 or 2 weeks.
Group 2: 7ish hours per session every month
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How many combats do you play?
This varies in every session!
In both groups, we have had entire sessions without a single combat (but made entirely of roleplay encounters) but in our most combat-intensive sessions so far, in group 1 I think it was 4 combats, in group 2 it was 5 combats. But we don't like it any less with fewer combats, it's just a mixed bag every session.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How long do they take?
Group 1: Each combat takes about an hour and half. Though some have been longer (I think the longest has been two hours or so) and some have been shorter, say an hour.
Group 2: Each combat takes about an hour. Though some have been longer (I think the longest was an hour and half) and some have been shorter (I think the shortest was 30min, though it wasn't meant to be a challenging encounter, merely a delaying force sent by the real threat that they met later on).
Disclaimer: rarely do we actually watch the clock, the above time frames are just from times that I happened to notice the time. But, usually, I am not watching the clock unless it's on accident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How many players do you play with?
Group 1: 6 players + 1 DM
Group 2: 5 players + 1 DM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
As said in an earlier answer, our sessions vary in that roleplay-combat spectrum each game. We have had entire sessions made up on one extreme or the other, and other sessions fall somewhere in between.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
For me, personally, no. But I will qualify that and say our groups are made up of people who (generally) get very in to the plot and character motivations and such. So combats (and noncombat situations) really are just obstacles along the path of achieving the in-character goals.
Having said that, I played with another group for a one-shot game. _that_ felt like a boardgame to me. No one was really invested in their characters or the plot and it was just "I have a set of stats" and "the monsters have a set of stats" set up the board and let's go at it. While there is nothing wrong with that, it just isn't the style I tend to prefer, but once in a while that is okay with me too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
-Do you change any of the rules?
Neither of our groups change the rules all that much.
Though we more or less don't do skill challenges by the book, nor do we do treasure parcels as presented... but , beyond that, the "rules" remain largely in tact with only a couple minor tweaks for flavor of the campaign (i.e. a race that might not be allowed because it doesn't exist in the world, and so on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
We've been playing around 9 months. We're 8th level. Combat is fun but with 5 players, even using power cards, seems to take around an hour per combat. It seems when we play 1 combat, it's way too easy. We have so many healing surges and all our dailies. But when we play 3 combats, 4e seems to really shine with action points, milestones, dailies and by the 3rd encounter things feel really dramatic like they can go either way. But with a 4 hour session, that leaves very little room for roleplaying.
Just curious -- have to considered not forcing the end of the adventure to coincide with the end of the session? By that I mean, the PCs can advance maybe as far as they can get at a leisurely pace while stopping encounters long enough to do some more noncombat encounters that you want to include.
And then stop when you are out of time (though watch the clock before any fight to see if you could reasonably finish it before it's time to go, and then stop there).
Everyone would take notes as to which daily powers are used up, how many surges they have left, how many hit points they have left, how many action points they have left, which magic item daily power uses they have, etc.
Then, pick up the next session where you left off.
This would allow you to get in some more RP time that you seem to want more of.
Of course, the logistics may make it difficult - I don't know if you have rotating players or what not. And if people miss from one session to the next it would make this type of a setup more difficult.
__________________ If you're bored and like to follow links provided by random strangers, check out my ENWorld Blog http://www.enworld.org/forum/blogs/fba827/
It will have campaign logs and random thoughts...
-What level are you?:
The PC's are level 8 -How long do you play for?:
3 to 4 hours, 1/week (but RL means often 3/4 weeks or so) -How many combats do you play?:
2 or 3 -How long do they take?:
about an hour or so -How many players do you play with?:
Me (DM) plus 2 players with 2 PCs each. -How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?:
probably a max of about 10% is actual speaking in character type roleplay -Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?:
Nope, but it does fell like a wargame, which we like. Tactics FTW -Do you change any of the rules?:
I knocked off about 15% of monster HP, didn't speed it up enough. As of the session coming I have knocked off 1/4 HP and changed the damage in the module (H3) to equal the 'expected damage output' in the DMG.. that has added from 30 to 100% extra damage on a lot of attacks.
I fudge a fair few rolls, as well
What level are you?
We've just reached level 5, starting from level 1.
How long do you play for?
Usually 4-5 hours, about once every three weeks. I try to get to once every 2 weeks, but my players all have busy schedules.
How many combats do you play?
That really depends on the session in question, but on average, I'd say 2 combats per session.
How long do they take?
At first longer, about 1.5-2 hours, but now that my players (not to mention I) get more experienced, something over an hour each. We started 4E with two DM's new to the system (experienced in 3.5), 2 players experienced in 3.5, and 2 that never played any kind of P&P game before, which might explain the long battles.
How many players do you play with?
As mentioned up there, 5 players, 1 DM. The DM's (me being one of them) switch between playing and DM'ing every few weeks.
How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
It really depends on each session, but I'd say that since combat has started to speed up, the majority of the session. I've done regular checkups with my players, and even the ones that were a bit iffy about 4E have to admit that combat is fun and fluid, and the system does not block their ability to RP, which they were worried about.
Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
In combat, I guess, yes, but that's not exactly new for me where RPG's are concerned (i.e. 3.5 D&D). I've played a couple of RP's (both online and face-to-face) where this was not the case, but that always felt... off. A boardgame tends to be fair and follow certain rules, other systems leave much more to DM fiat.
Do you change any of the rules?
Not much. I replaced the expertise feats with a free +1 to all attacks at levels 5, 15 and 25. If necessary, I'd juggle HP and damage around to reduce grind, but my monsters have never had trouble dealing good damage, and they go down fast enough. Strikers in particular are capable of killing an enemy in a short time, as one would expect. (I've seen a few go down in a single round with AP spending).
-How many combats do you play?
It depends. At first we were only doing one or two encounters with roleplaying and wasting time. Now we can do two or three – maybe 4 - with roleplaying and wasting time.
-How long do they take?
Combats were taking a LONG time, but then I realized two things (a) I didn’t modify the encounters when we were missing players. I made them smaller in number, but that wasn’t the right approach. Sometimes I planned on having two defenders at the table when none of them showed up and I had a leader, a controller, and a couple of strikers. They couldn't hit the soldiers. (b) I had under-geared my players. Once I started fixing treasure distribution, the combats went by more quickly. If we do three encounters we are in combat 3/6 hours of game play.
-How many players do you play with?
4 to 5
-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?
1/6 hours
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
No.
-Do you change any of the rules?
It depends. I houseruled the expertise feats from PHII. That helped w/combat too. Our combats now are something like this: both sides hit hard and both sides hit often. The players are never walking through an encounter, but the encounters are long-hard slogs.
Also varies. I've had short ones that last about 15 minutes, and long ones that go over an hour.
-How many players do you play with?
4 plus myself.
-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
Varies, no set time. I've had sessions so far that were 95% rp, and some that had only combat. Just depends on what's going on, and where the characters are.
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
No more so then any other RPG does.
-Do you change any of the rules?
Yes, I change/add rules, sometimes subtract rules, or modify what rules can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenskot
We've been playing around 9 months. We're 8th level. Combat is fun but with 5 players, even using power cards, seems to take around an hour per combat. It seems when we play 1 combat, it's way too easy. We have so many healing surges and all our dailies. But when we play 3 combats, 4e seems to really shine with action points, milestones, dailies and by the 3rd encounter things feel really dramatic like they can go either way. But with a 4 hour session, that leaves very little room for roleplaying.
Does your DM vary the encounter difficulty? If not, he should. I've noticed easy encounters are still fun, and soak up some of the players resources, but are quick.
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Additionally, with the tactics so focused on teamwork (which I think is very cool) there is a pressure not to mess around. It might be funny to act in character and do something dramatic but non-tactical but if that means screwing up what the team is trying to do, it feels like you are hurting everyone.
This is an interesting one because it's part of the whole role playing game thing. I think it makes combat more "real" to me. In a real fight, anyone who was smart and spends their time wandering dungeons and fighting crazy monsters would go ion with a team that works together, and uses good tactics, etc... Like a military unit. They do what they do, and are trained to do it well. Anything else is suicidal.
But in an RPG you might choose to play someone not quite s ell trained, or someone who just doesn't care. As a result you, the player, might know something is the right tactic, but your character might not or maybe doesn't care- whatever. Good role playing would dictate you play your character despite it being bad for the group. That's the character you chose to play, so play him , and deal with the repercussions. That's just part of the fun. (And part of what makes it different from other games.)
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We've thought about many ways to hack the game to make combats run faster and have it be fun with only 1-2 combats. Cut Monster hit points down, up their damage, lower PC healing surges and so on. But before messing with the rules, I wanted to see what playing 4e was like for all of you, especially if you are playing 4e without hacks.
Thanks everyone!
-John
In the end if you want to hack the rules, I say go for it... But there are other ways to achieve what you want I think.
I also want to ask- Are all of your fights to the death? I thinka lot of people just get into a habit (I do to) of making every fight to the death, despite how unrealistic this is.
If someone is getting their buts kicked, they're most likely going to run away before they get killed. It's just the nature of life. That doesn't mean they won't try to come back later with a new plan, however.
"Realistic" combats should be fluid. The goblins might fight, realize they can't win, then run off, lick a few wounds, and plan another attack somewhere else down the road. They might not even heal their HP all the way (giving you a way to hack their HP total without just hacking the HP rules...)
I've been playing the RPGA LFR games at a local game store.
>
In a session:
-What level are you?
6th level typically
-How long do you play for?
5 hours
-How many combats do you play?
2 or 3.
-How long do they take?
The other night one took like an hour.
-How many players do you play with?
5.
-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
Not very long. The skill challenges in the mods don't seem like role play for me. IMHO. They're more like okay now its time to make some skill rolls.
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Yes sometimes.
-Do you change any of the rules?
No.
Mike
__________________ "I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for The One. We die for The One." Marcus, Babylon 5
In a session:
- I have played in 3 campaigns all of them starting from 1st level. One of them is currently 4th level, another is 5th level and the other one ended at third (I co-DM the first one, and I was the only DM in the last one)
-We average 4 hours per session
-We have 1-3 combats per session, depending on how much RP and exploration there is
-Our combats take between 40 and 60 minutes
-4-6
-Depends... we have had 4 hour sessions with a single combat
-It only feels like a boardgame when everyone is tired and stops describing our attacks and moves. When we are on top of our game, it feels like the mother of all action-adventure movies.
-We haven't yet changed any rules per se, but when I DM, I try to do the following:
1.- Use a magnetic board for initiative and monster hp/condition tracking. This one is very good, but a small whiteboard will do.
2.- Use more low-level monsters, instead of fewer higher-level ones (this has been mentioned elsewhere)
3.- When the controllers and artillery are dead, and everybody's banging on the couple of remaining soldiers or brutes, who are barely bloodied, it is ok to have them drop on the next hit or three. If done correctly, the players won't even notice the fudge.
4.- Try to have intelligent monsters flee or surrender when it becomes obvious that they don't have a chance.
However, every group is different... Some like more combat, some enjoy entire sessions of pure roleplaying... YMMV and all that...
__________________ "I am King of the Romans and above the rules of grammar!" - Sigismund, Roman Emperor and my new hero
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Last edited by Amphimir Míriel; 11th May 2009 at 07:10 PM..
Additionally, with the tactics so focused on teamwork (which I think is very cool) there is a pressure not to mess around. It might be funny to act in character and do something dramatic but non-tactical but if that means screwing up what the team is trying to do, it feels like you are hurting everyone.
I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I understand this part. If the character has a reason to do something that doesn't benefit the group...then why not do it? If there's out-of-character pressures stopping the player, that's kind of sketchy to me. The character has some motivation going on that doesn't include the group's best chances for survival -- whether it's a riskier maneuver, or the character just doesn't care about his teammates -- but I don't see why the player can't just do that?
Other than that though, one thing I found to help improve RP during my group's 4e foray was to come up with a lot of potential "one-liners" for the villains. I did that and it helped things out, but I noticed it could be better. So I started thinking about this: "What doesn't the badguy know?" Either about the situation, the PCs, or whatever. And I started working in questions into those one-liners.
I even had specific lines keyed to events that made it interesting. For instance, once the dragon got Bloodied, he'd say "Who are you that has the power to challenge me?!" It showed that the dragon was actually starting to become afraid. Similar lines have been subtle signals to the Players that now they can use Intimidate to end the battle against lesser enemies.
Essentially, scripting some lines and using them as a cue for different conditions or effects can add a lot to the proceedings because they are a roleplaying element that specifically ties in with the rules. The right questions might reveal chinks in the badguy's plan, weaknesses, or might simply get the players talking in character.
And the more extreme you are with characterizations, the more easily the players follow your lead. I often will write down an actor or character in a movie that stands out and try to do an impression of them when running a specific NPC (all of my Dwarven bartenders are Gimli, for instance, and all of my creepy manservants are Igor from Young Frankenstein). Please note that my impressions suck, but the key is that they are consistent ;-)
Some really dumb examples that ended up creating VERY memorable interactions or characters:
- using a Micky Mouse style voice (not easy!!) to portray a faerie dragon
- playing the Seneschal of a castle as a flower-loving gay man (he was a ridiculously powerful wizard, too)
- playing a Troll street samurai in Shadowrun that worked at a toll booth on a bridge. He lived underneath the bridge during the day. When he did his night shifts at the toll booth, he got extra money for running a sex therapy hotline (he had a ridiculous specialty rating in Sex Therapy)
- a ghostly little girl that followed the characters...as she secretly grew in power, I deepened my voice slightly each time to show she was "growing up"
- I recorded myself whispering weird phrases, and then played it back during a session as background music at a much slower speed, so it was really deep and weird sounding. It was actually the chanting of some demented creatures hounding the PCs, and I would play it whenever the creatures got near (see Dungeon Magazine's adventure Meenlock Prison)
- doing my best Sean Connery impression (which isn't very good) when playing an aging assassin who'd turned good and joined the PCs
I don't know why I wrote all of that, but there you go...
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Seriously, though, probably about 2/12 hours, making the session about half and half. Although we RP during combat, too.
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