4e / GSL What is playing 4e like for you?

[jenskot]

When you play a session of 4e, what is it like?

In a session:
-What level are you?
-How long do you play for?
-How many combats do you play?
-How long do they take?
-How many players do you play with?
-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
-Do you change any of the rules?

Why I ask:

We've been playing around 9 months. We're 8th level. Combat is fun but with 5 players, even using power cards, seems to take around an hour per combat. It seems when we play 1 combat, it's way too easy. We have so many healing surges and all our dailies. But when we play 3 combats, 4e seems to really shine with action points, milestones, dailies and by the 3rd encounter things feel really dramatic like they can go either way. But with a 4 hour session, that leaves very little room for roleplaying.

Additionally, with the tactics so focused on teamwork (which I think is very cool) there is a pressure not to mess around. It might be funny to act in character and do something dramatic but non-tactical but if that means screwing up what the team is trying to do, it feels like you are hurting everyone.

We've thought about many ways to hack the game to make combats run faster and have it be fun with only 1-2 combats. Cut Monster hit points down, up their damage, lower PC healing surges and so on. But before messing with the rules, I wanted to see what playing 4e was like for all of you, especially if you are playing 4e without hacks.

Thanks everyone!
-John

[Crothian]

-What level are you?

4-5th level

-How long do you play for?

Once a week for about 5 hours

-How many combats do you play?

Per session, depends. We've have many with no combat but some we've have maybe a half dozen.

-How long do they take?

Depends on what we are dealing with. Some have taken 20 minutes, and some of the big ones take an hour or longer.

-How many players do you play with?

Usually 5

-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?

We role play outside and inside of combat. Most of the time out side of combat is role playing.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

Never

-Do you change any of the rules?

Nope

[Pbartender]

-What level are you?

Started at 1st, played up to 6th.

-How long do you play for?

We play once a week, about four hours at a time.

-How many combats do you play?

We usually manage two or three an night... We'll generally manage thee or four between each extended rest, depending on how well the encounters go.

-How long do they take?

On average, about 30 to 45 minutes for a typical encounter of appropriate level. We've (rarely) had them as short as 10-15 minutes. One epic comabt against a red dragon lasted the entire session and then some (it was nearly five hours long), but was a dynamic fight and never really felt like "grinding".

-How many players do you play with?

4-6... Usually 5.

-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?

If by roleplay, you mean "anything outside of combat", it gets about equal time.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

No, not really... Definitely no more so than any other edition.

-Do you change any of the rules?

Technically, no. I have changed some guidelines for how to use some rules... e.g. Most bad guys will try to start retreat at bloodied hit points, and I have a different method for awarding milestones. ...but I haven't changed any of the actual rules.

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by jenskot

-What level are you?

Eladrin Wizard, 12th level.

We've played 33 game sessions. When I changed games I was bumped up in experience to fit in with my new group the equivalent of eight game sessions. From what I've noted; hero tier lasted three or four sessions, and we went five sessions to get from 11th to 12th. Our game will be ending in three weeks, and the DM's final act will probably be to announce that we just leveled to 13th.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do you play for?

Three to three and a half hours, plus emails during the week to take care of issues that would cut into game time.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How many combats do you play?

Between one and three. Sometimes there is an extended combat that involves a chase... us chasing wimpy survivors, or fearsome monsters chasing us.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do they take?

That is subjective, based on the complexity of an encounter. But as an average I'd say a half hour to 45 minutes.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How many players do you play with?

Between three and seven, with the average four or five.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?

Travel is constant roleplay. In non-life-threatening combat, there is some hot dogging. We also involve ourselves in the local cities, and I'd like to do more of that.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

Sometimes, but I've been pleasantly surprised that it's much less than I thought. The game could not be played properly without a grid.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-Do you change any of the rules?

For 4.0E... not deliberately, but by accident through an improper understanding of the rules.

With earlier editions we bent the rules heavily, and went into new editions (2.0 to 3.5) with house rules already in place because they were so similar (IMO).

[Cadfan]

For my primary game:

-What level are you?
Four. I have played combat scenarios with my wife from levels 1 to 11 with a different party (essentially dungeon bashing our way through the H modules, now on the P modules, with roleplaying occuring as joking around between sessions).

-How long do you play for?
Everyone is at my place for four hours, but the actual game takes up however much time it takes. I believe very strongly in not forcing people to stay on topic if they're having fun talking about something unrelated to the game. The game should not be the enemy of fun.

-How many combats do you play?
Usually one, but if not, three or so.

-How long do they take?
Varies. Sometimes they're just punctuation that takes less than half an hour (bear in mind our incredible percentage of off topic time) and which occur for reasons other than the tension of whether the PCs will win. If they're serious combats, the usual combat takes a little under an hour, but they usually occur with 2 or 3 combats in rapid succession. This means that the whole evening will be about 2/3rds combat.

-How many players do you play with?
Five players plus the DM.

-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?
Often entire sessions, minus a short "punctuation" combat. Except when we hit dramatic high points that involve a lot of violence, those days there won't be much roleplaying. Last session, for example, saw no combat at all except for a quick gladiatorial match between a PC and an NPC that took less than 5 minutes. Other days vary.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Maybe, but I have worse aspersions to cast on the combat systems of other games. Better the feel of a good boardgame than the feel of a lotto ticket. I like boardgames, and given that roleplay tends to take place by just talking and in comparison combat tends to essentially involve a minigame in every rpg system I can think of, I'd rather it be a minigame that I like.

-Do you change any of the rules?
I regularly ad lib extra abilities on to monsters if I feel like it will make sense and be fun. For example, in a gladiatorial match our party was intentionally throwing (it wasn't to the death), our warlock (masquerading as a noncombatant merchant at the time, its a long story) tackled the enemy wizard and grabbed her around the waist. She didn't fall, he's kind of a wuss in physical combat. This was largely an ad libbed attack- I let him make an attack as if it were a grab, and figured she'd fall if he rolled high. He didn't. In response, she had the spell Thunderwave. Normally this pushes people, but since she was firing it downwards at a guy essentially hanging on to her legs, it slammed his head into the dirt and broke the grab. Not in the rules, sure, but it made sense and it was cool. Remember, they were trying to lose as extravagantly as possible, so eating dirt absolutely made his day.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by jenskot

-What level are you?

Sir Yatagan Fracas is a 7th level Dragonborn paladin.

-How long do you play for?

3-4 hours, biweekly (at best) plus play-by-post on a campaign message board.

-How many combats do you play?

Usually 1 per live session. We also play combats on the message board. In fact, the group's in the middle of one right now.

-How long do they take?

Live, around an hour. By post, a day or two.

-How many players do you play with?

6 + DM.

-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?

Quite a lot.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

Combat does sometimes... but I've felt that way about every edition

-Do you change any of the rules?

Some minor house rules.

[Harr]

This is a great thread I feel, because it genuinely addresses real problems that you have in-game. I'll try to answer you as fully as I can.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-What level are you?

Level 6 going on 7 currently. in our former campaign we got to level 11.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do you play for?

4-5 hours a session.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How many combats do you play?

Almost without exception 3 per session. I design the adventures that way; 3 combats and a smattering of small roleplaying and trap/puzzle encounters. Always enough to resolve the current quest and storyline within a single session.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do they take?

Combats? 30-40 minutes. I keep track of the time and if we hit the 40 minute mark I cut it short. To be able to do this I almost always design the combat to be resolved on something other than "the other side is all dead". For example, "get out of the church with the figurine intact" type of stuff.

Whether the "monsters" actually end up all dead in the end is irrelevant and XP is awarded on basis of success or failure of the objective and nothing else.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How many players do you play with?

4, sometimes, 5, sometimes 3.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?

My players never 'roleplay' cause it's silly to them (and to me). What they do enjoy doing is dealing with and solving challenging, puzzling and dramatic situations, and making important choices about the story, and seeing what happens.

(Yes I realize the distinction is blurry, but the critical difference is that my players really could not care less about the history, background, personalities, emotions, insecurities, etc of their characters, or pretending that they are actually real people in any way).

For every combat that takes places we have one or two 'social' or 'puzzle' challenges (note these are NOT the 'skill challenges' of 4e; they are fully dynamic and improvised) in between that decide how the next combat might start or take place and how the story will turn out in the end.

Originally Posted by jenskot

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

Of course it does. Silly to expect or want it not to; a big part of the game is literally a board game. We like it that way and enjoy it all the more for that.

(I would raise an eyebrow at the people who declare that it never does, or give a big PFFT to the idea that that would be a bad thing in any way, but eh, we all have our different experiences and they are all valid and all that )

Originally Posted by jenskot

-Do you change any of the rules?

I used to, not any more. It's more about designing the session to be cool within the scope of the rules, than trying to make the rules fit the scope of your session. It's a subtle difference which I have learned gradually.

Originally Posted by jenskot

But when we play 3 combats, 4e seems to really shine with action points, milestones, dailies and by the 3rd encounter things feel really dramatic like they can go either way. But with a 4 hour session, that leaves very little room for roleplaying.

I guess other people might help you a lot more than I, considering, but what I have taken to doing is to distill the "roleplaying", ie the non-combat parts of the game, into the pure choices the party has to make to move the narrative along.

So it's common for me to say something like "You walk into the corridor, you see the Baron and a girl are here yelling at each other. The baron grabs the girl by the wrist and pulls her forcefully into his room. He's got like a sneer on his face that you don't like. You wanna let him go or you wanna try and stop him?" (With full consideration of any other idea the players come up with of course).

With a bit of experience this sets up a nice little rhythm of bang, bang, bang, bang: Stuff happens, what do you do. Stuff happens, what do you do. Stuff happens, what do you do. And so on.

On the other hand, this leaves NO time whatsoever for anything like "He flicks his head back, arranging his almond-copper hair into place, thinking about how much he wants his father to be proud of him," or that kind of stuff. I don't really have any patience for that myself anyway, and neither does anybody else at my table luckily.

Originally Posted by jenskot

Additionally, with the tactics so focused on teamwork (which I think is very cool) there is a pressure not to mess around. It might be funny to act in character and do something dramatic but non-tactical but if that means screwing up what the team is trying to do, it feels like you are hurting everyone.

Eh, if the player is the "mess around and be funny" type he'll find ways to do so anyway, in my experience. Metahumor, that kind of stuff.

Originally Posted by jenskot

We've thought about many ways to hack the game to make combats run faster and have it be fun with only 1-2 combats. Cut Monster hit points down, up their damage, lower PC healing surges and so on. But before messing with the rules, I wanted to see what playing 4e was like for all of you, especially if you are playing 4e without hacks.

Like I say above... there are ways to make the session exciting within the rules. These ways are all very subtle, they are also all very personal and unique to the group of players, and can only be achieved through constant playing, practice, and thinking about what YOUR particular players want. If they're all about the roleplaying and posturing and play-acting, they won't kind you hurrying or even cutting the combats. If they're about the tactics and the decisions and the doing of things, they won't care that your baron doesn't flick his golden hair back before saying something.

The trick is knowing that everybody always says they're about everything. Everybody always says that they have good combats AND good roleplaying AND good challenges AND good stories, but you know what, really, it's always slanted to one side... people just won't admit it. It's just something that you have to find out and discover for yourself. But just knowing that you do helps a whole lot

Hope this helps you in some way and hope you are able to improve your game.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Harr

What they do enjoy doing is dealing with and solving challenging, puzzling and dramatic situations, and making important choices about the story, and seeing what happens.

My friends call that role-playing.

On the other hand, this leaves NO time whatsoever for anything like "He flicks his head back, arranging his almond-copper hair into place, thinking about how much he wants his father to be proud of him," or that kind of stuff. I don't really have any patience for that myself anyway, and neither does anybody else at my table luckily.

You mean uninteresting and cliched writing?

[Fallen Seraph]

What level are you?
It fluctuates depending on which campaign my players are in. But averaging out probably 5ish.
How long do you play for?
6-8 hours.
How many combats do you play?
1-2 combats if combat heavy. Most games are investigative, I prefer the dramatic/action scenes to be non-combat a fair portion of the time, like say a chase scene.
How long do they take?
Combat takes on average about 20-40 minutes to complete.
How many players do you play with?
I have 4 players.
How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
Well we also roleplay in combat, but even in a combat heavy game, and with plenty of investigative work and dramatic scenes (Skill Challenges and such), basic roleplaying with no rolling of dice probably takes up 2/3rds of the game.
Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Nope, never, it feels like it always has that we are playing a collective story. Sure combat has more boardgame elements, but that is meta-gaming fun, and then there is in-game fun.
Do you change any of the rules?
We have houserules, but the vast majority of rules stay the same, my houserules are:

• Powers can be divided up. What this means is, if someone wishes to only perform one aspect of a Power they can. Or, if they wish to *Use Power: Shifts, Move Action: Moves, Rest of Power: Attack* they can. I find this is really good at mixing things up and making fighting and other scenarios really cinematic. They use pg. 42, acrobatic stunts, etc. all the time now thanks to this.
• Powers are fully usable in any context. So be it out-of-combat, a Skill Challenge, etc. This is already sorta a official rule, with Powers made for creatures being able to attack objects, etc. But I spell it out fully.
• My Skill Challenges are handled with different mechanics for different events (though not too different).
• XP is handled much differently, relying on not combat but character events to give out XP. When the character grows, you grow in Power.
• Encounters become Per Scene and Dailies become Per Chapter. My games are more combat light, so this works to even it out.
• I am very loose on Feats and requirements, such as non-Arcane taking Familiars.
• Everyone receives a free Weapon/Implement Expertise Feat at Level 1 for free.

[Harr]

Originally Posted by Mallus

My friends call that role-playing.

Yep, the word is ambiguous. Nice one.

However, note the subsequent clarification which you didn't quote for some reason. Do your players make a "background" for their characters? Do they care what place in the world their character "comes from"? Is the character's race taken as anything more than a packet of stat bonuses and special abilities? Could you have a character that is "afraid of fire"? Or that "hates dwarves", or has a mortal enemy from his past, or anything like that?

For my players, answers would be "no way", "hell no", "huh???", and "dude seriously stop being weird". There's the difference.

Edit -> I guess another way of describing the difference (since there's never any shortage of people to line up and try to emphazise how ambiguous the word "roleplaying" is one more time) would be to ask, is any of your players aware of the difference between "character knowledge" and "player knowledge" in any way, shape or form, and would they laugh in your face if you tried to explain it? To which in my group, the answer would be a resounding NO, following by a resounding OF COURSE.

Clearer now?

Originally Posted by Mallus

You mean uninteresting and cliched writing?

For sure.

[jenskot]

Awesome answers. This is really helping me!

Just a quick clarification, I definitely don't mean boardgame in a bad. I like boardgames. I just mean does combat get so focused on the tactics and rules that the imaginary stuff and character motivations become secondary.

Thanks everyone.
-John

[Truename]

-What level are you?

5th level. Started with H1 in October and then moved to Scales of War (Bordrin's Watch) afterwards.

-How long do you play for?

2.5 to 3 hours, once per week.

-How many combats do you play?

About two.

-How long do they take?

60-90 minutes, with climactic battles taking 2+ hours. They've been taking longer recently, probably because the group size is bigger. In the current adventure (Shadow Rift of Umbraforge), the combats have had a lot of conditions flying around and I've often had no time to study the encounter in advance. This has slowed things down.

Grind is generally nonexistant, but I'd like the fights to go faster so we could do more out-of-combat stuff. We use a lot of table management tricks to keep the speed up (plan your turn while others are moving; initiative cards; power cards; condition tokens; roll damage at same time as attack; etc), but with so many players it just takes a long time. When we have 3-4 players (rarely), it's very fast.

-How many players do you play with?

Typically 6 players + DM. We've recently added a 7th. It's large and fun, but slow, so if we lose anyone through attrition, I won't try to replace them.

-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?

Very little... perhaps 30 minutes per session. I'd like to see more, but with such short sessions, it's difficult to get everything in. Also, the whole group is pretty new (including me, the DM) and the roleplaying usually feels forced and awkward.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

Yes; we like boardgames, so we play up that aspect of the game with power cards, condition tokens, coins for hitpoints, bloodied markers, and so on.

EDIT: As the group has become bigger, combat's become more boardgamey and tactical, with less p42 improv or characterization. I think that's because there's so much going on and everyone's trying to keep it moving quickly.

-Do you change any of the rules?

Once an encounter is a foregone conclusion, I'll cut it short by having monsters flee or converting them to minions. Other than that, we're following the rules and Scales of War adventures closely.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We're 5 players and everyone runs his own campaign, switching weekly. Also, I am in an online campaign.

-What level are you?
Level 4 (Rise of the Runelords), Level 6 (Curse of the Crimson Throne), Level 19 (Savage Tides), Level 7 (I am the DM, H2), Level 2 (I am the DM, Online Campaign, homebrew, starting with KotS elements). We also have a Warhammer 4E campaign, but we have paused it for a while and played Torg instead with the DM, so I don't remember exactly which level. It's homebrew.

-How long do you play for?
My regular group usually starts around 18:00 and the game runs to 1:00 to 2:00 in the night, so around 6-8h. (Of course, with the usual goofing around and making jokes ).
The only campaign is about 2h30m per game

-How many combats do you play?
3-7, I think. Online 1-3 combats.

-How long do they take?
About an hour seems right, but it depends. In my own campaign, since the PCs are a little higher level, I conflated a few encounters in H2 to one encounter, making it a lot longer and harder.

-How many players do you play with?
3-4 players. Usually we make sure that we have 4 PCs, though, so someone has/may run two characters. The online campaign has 4 players, too.

-How long do you roleplay for outside of combat?
Depends on the adventure, I'd say we are pretty combat heavy. About 1-2h per session or so is usually involved with gathering clues, talking to people, making decisions. We don't spend too much time just "hanging around" in-character. There is usually always an in-game goal we follow. (make an ally, find the culprit, figure out the mystery, where can we go next to kill people and take their stuff.)

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Combat is always about tactics, so in that way, it's certainly like that. In games where we don't need a grid (Torg for example), we still play with a similar mindset, but you don't have to track positions, of course. But there is always some light role-playing on, characters talking with each other or the enemy, narrating what your attack does (but not every attack. ).
One of the fun things is the joking that goes on that is based on the fact that it's a roleplaying game - for example when a player announces his character to be bloodied, the Tiefling player will jokingly consider him as one of the target "hey, he's bloodied, and in this position I'd get combat advantage, too!". You don't usually get these in board games (well, it probably depends on what kind of board game. I could see it in Warhammer 40K, but not in Chess or Checkers. )

-Do you change any of the rules?
So far, I don't remember any changes. I think I'd ban the Battlerager Fighter in my campaign.

In the online campaign, I decided to give out twice the usual XP. Online we don't have so much time and I don't want to sit around at one level for too long.

[Cadfan]

Our characters rarely start with backstories. Certainly nothing beyond "tiefling orphan raised by humans." But they tend to develop personalities through play, and since I freely permit retconning this sort of thing, they retroactively develop backstories.

This may seem really haphazard, and to a certain extent it is, but it tends to lead to tightly knit groups of PCs with backstories that reference one another.

I also incorporate something I stole from Og: Unearthed. Within reason, you can suddenly discover mid game that you know how to do something you've never done before. Og does this by permitting PCs to choose their skills during the game instead of before hand. I do the same thing for non adventuring skills, with the caveat that you have to explain how you know how to do whatever it is, and that this is now part of your backstory. So we have one PC who knows how to captain a sailing vessel. She decided this because we needed someone who knew how to do this. She gave me a plausible reason for how it related to her existing backstory, and now its worked in and now she has this skill. If she wants to discover a skill again she'll face some difficulty because she'll have to work it into her existing backstory, which now has less "empty space" in it.

[Wormwood]

-What level are you?

11th. Paragon is *awesome* so far.

-How long do you play for?

~5 hours

-How many combats do you play?

Between 3 and 4.

-How long do they take?

45 minutes on average, depending on the DM, the size of the encounter, etc.

-How many players do you play with?

4 players, sometimes 5.

-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?

Again, that depends on the DM and the adventure. I'm guessing 20 or so minutes between encounters.

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?

I'll bite: sometimes, yes. Counting squares and planning moves often has a very 'Descent' feel to it. But that's a concession we're more than willing to make for a smooth tactical combat system. If it took board-game aesthetics to encourage such amazingly fun teamwork and group interplay to this game, then I welcome our board-game overlords!

-Do you change any of the rules?

Some tinkering has been tried with monsters (more damage, fewer HPs), but since that appears to have been embraced by WotC going forward, I'd say no.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Harr

Do your players make a "background" for their characters?

Some do.

Do they care what place in the world their character "comes from"?

Occasionally.

Is the character's race taken as anything more than a packet of stat bonuses and special abilities?

Depends. For my current character, the answer's 'yes'. I had a blast making up the details of his race (I co-created the setting).

Could you have a character that is "afraid of fire"?

Why not? While my current PC fears nothing, has a borderline obsession with fireworks. Also, he loved Pernod. And writes highly-eroticized labor propaganda.

Or that "hates dwarves", or has a mortal enemy from his past, or anything like that?

One PC in our group is in love with his sister who was kidnapped by air-pirates. Another is a Marxist dwarf who hate the bourgeoisie.

For my players, answers would be "no way", "hell no", "huh???", and "dude seriously stop being weird". There's the difference.

Not to my group. Some people enjoy the game with the kinds of embellishments I've described, some couldn't care less. But either way, it's all still role-playing.

...is any of your players aware of the difference between "character knowledge" and "player knowledge" in any way, shape or form, and would they laugh in your face if you tried to explain it?

Yes on one and no on two.

Yes, the difference between player and character knowledge is important to some of our players, because to them, part of the fun comes from the added challenge of problem-solving through the fictional persona they've created. Other players just care about overcoming the challenge.

And we'd never laugh at a player for the way they enjoy the game. Unless they came to a session in costume, or bored us with too much exposition about their character's daddy-issues and chestnut hair...

[Harr]

Hm, just because you got my wheels turning on the topic of long combats and cutting them short... I mentioned making combats about something OTHER than just killing the monsters. But maybe you're thinking 'how'.

Ok. Have you watched the movie "The Gamers"?

If you haven't, then do Watching that movie and then thinking "Why does that game feel so incredibly awesome and mine doesn't...?" Was what first alerted me to coming up with the "narrative out" for combats which I almost always use nowadays for the "big" fights.

I won't spoil anything, but basically "The Gamers" follows a party of PCs through a campaign. The interesting thing here is how they resolve the combats. There are definitely several combats that are taken on just by hacking and slashing through them... But the really interesting ones, the really big ones are all resolved not by cutting up the enemies, but by one of the PCs making that one leap of logic that lets them take that one crucial decisive action that will decisively win the day. Seriously watch it and you'll see what I mean


*** SPOILERS FOR KOTS IN AN EXAMPLE ***


As an example, when I re-ran Keep on the Shadowfell, instead of the objective being just "Kill Kalarel", what I had was four black candles set up around Kalarel. The candles had pretty high AC to hit to but any kind of damaging hit would knock them down. Anybody making an attack to knock down a candle would receive a free Opportunity attack from Kalarel (even at range).

The way it worked was if even ONE candle was knocked down at any time in the fight, the ritual was ruined. When Kalarel saw this he would immediately try to escape via another teleporting ritual. If all FOUR candles were knocked down, Kalarel would lose all the arcane power he had to the sucking vortex.

- If after 40 minutes of play all candles are still standing (extremely unlikely), the ritual is complete, the PCs black out and awaken in a desolate blackened ruin.

- If after 40 minutes of play at least one candle but not all are knocked down, Kalarel succeeds in teleporting himself out and escaping, but the party has succeeded in ruining the ritual.

- If before 40 minutes are up the party knocks all the 4 candles down, then the portal closes, Kalarel is stripped of his powers and despairs, starts crying and begs the PCs for mercy.

What does this do? It sets up a very easy and very fast way for the PCs to succeed at their objective that doesn't involve whittling the big bad down to 0. They can still do that if they want, but if they take too long, they can fail.

In the actual game they were not able to knock the four candles down; the combat was 20 minutes in before they knocked down the first one, and only three were down before the time was up. They saved Winterhaven but Kalarel got away.

Now, the point is that this is the kind of thing that 1) is SO easy and fast to set up, 2) is well within the rules and scope of 4e, and 3) is fun and makes the players feel oh-so-clever (even though it's so obvious... but it being obvious is the whole idea, you WANT them to know, so they can take action and wrap it up fast).

This may not be your cup of tea of course. But it's what I do... And no I don't consider any of this "roleplaying" LOL

[Harr]

Originally Posted by Mallus

One PC in our group is in love with his sister who was kidnapped by air-pirates. Another is a Marxist dwarf who hate the bourgeoisie.

Wow, hey, that's great there guy.

So you DO roleplay. And you DO understand the difference between when I say "We don't roleplay" and when I say "But we do enjoy solving puzzles and challenges".

You do understand perfectly and you have understood it from the beginning, as you just beautifully illustrated. See I had misunderstood your original remark "That's what my friends call roleplaying" As you thinking that what I was describing was actually what you and your friends called roleplaying... turns out you were just spontaneously verbalizing a random sentence.

So I don't have to explain it any more, and I didn't have to explain it in the first place even. Which is good.

Edit -> Btw. Even if you don't actually understand the difference yet... and even if you post something that implies that the two things are still the same to you... I'm sure by now the OP and everyone reading here else does understand fully, so that's as far as I'm gonna take this. Good day

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Harr

Wow, hey, that's great there guy.

It is.

So you DO roleplay.

Sure!

And you DO understand the difference between when I say "We don't roleplay" and when I say "But we do enjoy solving puzzles and challenges".

Well, I understand that your friends and mine play differently. But I'm unclear as to why you wouldn't call what your group does 'role-playing'.

... turns out you were just spontaneously verbalizing a random sentence.

To be honest, I do that a lot...

Btw. Even if you don't actually understand the difference yet... and even if you post something that implies that the two things are still the same to you...

Of course I understand the difference... but I think role-playing is rightly thought of as a broad category that includes everything from deep-immersion to no-immersion play.

Good day

Peace out!

[Jack99]

-What level are you?
My players are level 14

-How long do you play for?
5 hours per week

-How many combats do you play?
Varies. From 0-5. Average around 2 or 3.

-How long do they take?
Easy ones take around 30 minutes, normal ones around 45-60 minutes, hardcore stuff up to 2 hours.

-How many players do you play with?
5 players

-How long do you roelplay for outside of combat?
Roleplay takes up anywhere from 30 to 100% of our sessions

-Does it sometimes feel like playing a boardgame?
Not to me.

-Do you change any of the rules?
I have played around with hit points/damage ratio. We were fine with 4e rules as they are, but as a DM, my optimal choice is a little quicker combats. So I fixed that.

Cheers