General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Arguing is good. If we didn't have different viewpoints, what would be the point of this message board? Fanboys (and girls) heaping constant praise on WotC/D&D (whatever edition) would be pretty boring.
It's the jerkwads that drag it down. Beating a dead horse, twisting peoples words, dismissing other peoples experience, you name it. Even this thread has a couple of snide remarks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaze
Folks putting a little bit of effort into keeping the snark in their pants and hyperbole in the bedroom where it belongs would go a long way towards avoiding this issue.
Billy D. Williams, your wisdom is so true!
Although, WotC IS evil (if you don't believe me, start up a game store and try to get them to even acknowledge you exist) and don't get me started on Bullywugs (REALLY!?), people that like them have some serious issues (Piratecat, what are you doing with that hammer?).
__________________ Visit Dragon Snack Games! The best game store in Mt Morris, NY!
We're not telling anyone what game to play. We are telling the market that we're going to actively encourage our players to stand up and demand that they be listened to, and that they become the center of the gaming industry - rather than the current publisher-centric model. - Ryan Dancey
I'm too lazy to argue, but I have to add another endorsement of the ignore list.
I'm still adding one user a week or so, but the forums got much saner after I IL:d the five worst trolls or thereabouts.
__________________ I have a gaming blog - about D&D4, roguelikes and various gaming
"Rule 2: Give the players opportunities to use their cool abilities, because a neat class ability or spell that doesn't get used isn't fun. For this reason, I tried to cut off PC limbs for months after Velendo got access to regeneration." - Piratecat, Piratecat's Story Hour
Two guesses. First one doesn't count. Rhymes with "Canning more grass."
Fishing for Bass?
__________________ Visit Dragon Snack Games! The best game store in Mt Morris, NY!
We're not telling anyone what game to play. We are telling the market that we're going to actively encourage our players to stand up and demand that they be listened to, and that they become the center of the gaming industry - rather than the current publisher-centric model. - Ryan Dancey
I'm a slow poster and don't always have time to engage in lengthy discussions but I like debates. I have absolutely no interest in sugary, non-confrontational "d&d is awesome" threads.
I'm not a fan of long, wordy rants (I simply skip walls of text) but I'll take a good critique, controversy or all out edition war over a series of gushing "wow this is so cool" comments.
Even if you don't end up convincing anyone, confronting different opinions and arguments is interesting and venting is healthy.
That said, I do find personal attacks and thread-jacking unacceptable
__________________
_ Ceterum censeo the encounter/daily power system is an unholy blight upon D&Ddom
5e can't come soon enough
I am right about everything ever forever, and everyone on ENworld will share my opinions, or perish under the weight of their own ignorance.
Or something.
I've been pretty bad about getting into arguments without regard to the original thread topic. Usually happens late at night, and the next day, when I come back and look at all the time I wasted just arguing for argument's sake, I feel bad about engaging in thread drift.
I hate ignore features; I like to think that everyone, at some point, will have something insightful and reasoned to say that will expand my knowledge of (in this case) the gaming hobby.
Still, though, if that's what it takes for me to tone myself down, I suppose that's what will have to happen.
* There are a few exceptions. If you voted against bullywugs on WotC's latest poll, watch your back, buddy. Just saying.
Looks over shoulder. Oh, wait! It says Piratecat not Ninjacat (breathes a sigh of relief).
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
Add me to those that doesn't believe in ignore lists. As others have written, most people here have good points at one time or another (or so I would like to believe).
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
Personally I am all for arguments, when they are able to refrain from personal insults. I don't care if its about an old subject, because points may be conveyed better this time around.
I don't do ignore lists either. Like others have said, just because I disagree with them this time doesn't mean I always will. Now if they were a poster who refused to improve their posting behavior, and continue to use personal insults and such, then I would ban them. I haven't noticed anyone who is that bad yet. Well, I have, but they tend to go away and never come back without being ignored.
Anyways, I like arguments, its the only way to see what the viewpoints of others are, and to consider those view points. If everyone on ENWorld starts agreeing with each other and starts singing songs together I wouldn't come here any longer.
So argue away, Joe! Just try and keep it from getting personal. Don't use specific names, don't use insulting words. Stick to your opinion, the facts you know, and state them nicely. Then when you have said your piece, don't post anymore to that thread unless someone specifically asks for a follow up in some manner.
I used to get all bent out of shape, but then I made it to Gen Con 06, and found out a lot of the people who irritated me on these boards were actually pretty darn nice people in person. So don't take anything on these boards as personal, it isn't even close to being the same as having a face to face discussion.
Take Piratecat for instance, he really isn't the obnoxious donkey's behind he seems to be on these boards, he's really a very calm, cool, and relaxed guy. I believe "personable" is the word I am looking for.
My impression of you was totally wrong too, Joe. That or I ran into a different guy with your name, not to mention the pleasant eBay business we have done.
So I recommend treating message boards as a world of their own that doesn't translate very well into the real world.
One thing about boards, we tend to fixate on just a few things we disagree about, and that is all we talk about, but when I met certain people at GenCon 06 I found out despite what we disagreed on, we agreed on a heck of a lot more.
So don't take it to heart, because it isn't personal on message boards.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
I don't like using ignore lists, but sometimes it's a necessity. I've only ever ignored one poster, and not on this forum, because every one of his posts was a subtle insult one way or another. Doesn't matter that I agreed with him once or twice, douches just need to be ignored.
__________________ Proud gamer of Sullivan, New York.
Death is not the end, but yet another journey--one that we all must take. The gray rain curtain of this world parts, everything fades to silver glass and then you see it--the white shore and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
--Everything that I'd like to believe about the afterlife.
Arguing is good. If we didn't have different viewpoints, what would be the point of this message board? Fanboys (and girls) heaping constant praise on WotC/D&D (whatever edition) would be pretty boring.
Discussion is good. Debate can be good. These are exchange of ideas between people with different opinions.
Arguing is not good, as it does not include actual intellectual exchange - when things get to argument, the sides are only listening to each other in order to formulate counter-arguments, if they even listen that much.
When people argue, the point ceases to be so much to put forth your opinion and lean about the other guy's point of view, and becomes more about proving the other guy wrong, or "winning".
It's the argument, not the people, that matters. Make your case, as persuasively as you can. And, sometimes, that entails a dignified silence.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
I can live with spirited debate, but don't sabotage the argument with the following:
* Don't burst into a discussion about a specific topic/world/edition and denounce a specific element of that topic/world/edition (including, but not limited to: races, classes, monsters, spells, game elements, or world design) by declaring it as "not D&D", lamenting its inclusion, and demanding its removal.
* Similarly, don't use unfunny nicknames to refer to said elements.
* Don't answer the question "How do I fix ___ in edition X" by saying "Play edition Y instead!"
* Don't use the following letters: GNS. They godwinize a thread by devoting the next 5-6 pages to Forgespeak and trying to define what those letters actually mean.
* Don't assume your playstyle is inherently better because you've played longer, met Gary Gygax, or created some elaborate dissertation about how your right and we're wrong.
* World of Warcraft. Its been done. Find some new material.
I'm sure if we can have conversations where people think about what they post and don't assume they're beliefs are superior, we might have some conversations that are informative and interesting, rather than peeing contests.
I used to get all bent out of shape, but then I made it to Gen Con 06, and found out a lot of the people who irritated me on these boards were actually pretty darn nice people in person. So don't take anything on these boards as personal, it isn't even close to being the same as having a face to face discussion.
I'd like to second this.
Message boards are a bad form of communication in many ways. They don't pass through tone, expression, or numerous other things and they don't always allow real discussion to take place because it's still just text messaging even when it's back and forth text messaging.
There are many people who you meet and are like, "You're X? No way! Let's have a beer!"
I just state my opinion and then leave it at that.
If a thread turns in to several posts between the same two people back and forth, I lose interest.
if someone responds to something I've said (without it being an actual question, but instead just as a counterargument) I don't even feel the need to reply and debate -- why? i've already said my point. he/she has said his/hers. And other people will have their own opinion. that's all there really is to it. So there isn't even the urge to get it to the point where I would consider it an argument.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. Just read some opinions, catch some random gaming news, tap in to some creative ideas I had not yet considered for my own games, and then share my own thoughts on topics that i feel like adding to...
__________________ If you're bored and like to follow links provided by random strangers, check out my ENWorld Blog http://www.enworld.org/forum/blogs/fba827/
It will have campaign logs and random thoughts...
But man, I'm trying harder and harder lately. It's just not worth it. No one ever goes, "Man, that's an awesome point. I've completely changed my mind. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction."
How about other people? Giving up on the arguements or keeping the "good fight" going?
I very rarely bother posting for just this reason. In Aristotle's words:
Quote:
When an adversary tries by every possible means to wriggle out of a corner, it is legitimate to strive, by every possible means, to reach the conclusion; but this procedure lacks elegance. Topics 8.14.164b
If I had to put a point on it, I guess I'd say that most of what goes on here isn't at all argument in the rhetorical sense. It's more like rationalization: instead of drawing conclusions based on evidence, people select their evidence to suit the conclusions they already have. And of course, if you show their conclusions for what they are, they'll either try to relativize the whole discussion or scrap it on grounds of insufficient data. For a while last year I collected edition war posts for a project I was doing on argumentation theory using The New Rhetoric, but it got old really fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrohd
And yeah ignore lists are useful. Though it depends on the forum. Here I have noone in my ignore list technically, but there are a couple of people that I simply will never reply to however much I might like to. Still ignoring them might make some threads unreadable and one at least often has some useful information to provide (alongside a good dose of bile).
I have 45 people on mine . Not uncoincidentally, there are some threads that consist almost entirely of these people talking to one another, so if I open one of those I may see only 2 out of 30 posts, which is quite amusing.
__________________ Kosmon tonde, ton auton apantōn, oute tis theōn oute anthrōpōn epoiēsen, all’ ēn aei kai estin kai estai pur aeizōon, haptomenon metra kai aposbennumenon metra. . . . Panta gar to pur epelthon krinei kai katalēpsetai.
I have 45 people on mine . Not uncoincidentally, there are some threads that consist almost entirely of these people talking to one another, so if I open one of those I may see only 2 out of 30 posts, which is quite amusing.
Which makes me wonder; can you see on whose ignore lists you're on? So you can find out if your talking to a brick-wall or not?
. Not uncoincidentally, there are some threads that consist almost entirely of these people talking to one another, so if I open one of those I may see only 2 out of 30 posts, which is quite amusing.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
