It's hard to avoid arguing

[avin]

I'm trying my best to avoid arguments here. People have different opinions and they must be respected.

Often, I'm most inclined to argue against people who I think are just defending a system just because they like it, matter not if they are wrong or right.

I was put on ignore list for people who quick read me and think I'm a 4E basher just because I'm critic to some aspects of 4E, like MM fluff, but in fact it's the opposite: I'm a DDI subscriber and DM three games in the new system, not thinking about going back, except for GURPS wich is teh winz0r \o/

Well, I ignored some people who just jump and mindlessly defend 4E too, so I think we all should step back and try to be polite to each other

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Dragon Snack

However, if we're going to split hairs, a 'debate' is usually a contest with winners and losers (at the very least, each side is trying to win).

If you'd prefer, we can refer to it as dialectic method, but that takes longer to type.

I would say that's more detrimental to the tone of the message boards than an argument any day.

Honestly, as a moderator, I have to disagree. Argument (as I am using the word) has all the negatives of debate, but none of the positives - like structure, a focus on maintenance of quality, and lack of personal attack.

That last is the biggie. If you are debating, and someone goes ad hominem, the weakness of the point is clear. If you are arguing, pointing out that getting personal weakens the whole discussion falls on deaf ears.

I get the sense that a lot of people here use "argument" to mean "discussion". I don't.

[Ktulu]

I agree 100% with the OP and often just move on. There are many times when I've got a nice laid out response and I'm ready to hit reply when I think, "you know, the person won't agree with my point, anyway, and I don't want to get into a 10 page argument".

I then just close up the page and continue on to another thread. Too bad, too, because the internet should be about open discussion, but too many people are rude and choose hyperbole over sound arguments.

[Arnwyn]

Originally Posted by Remathilis

Which makes me wonder; can you see on whose ignore lists you're on? So you can find out if your talking to a brick-wall or not?

That would be pretty handy. What I would really like, though, is the ability to put myself on someone else's ignore list! Some people should really just not ever respond to my posts.

Unfortunately I don't use the ignore list myself, as it simply doesn't work. AFAIC, a working ignore list should scrub the entire existence of said ignored poster from the website.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Umbran

Honestly, as a moderator, I have to disagree. Argument (as I am using the word) has all the negatives of debate, but none of the positives - like structure, a focus on maintenance of quality, and lack of personal attack.

I believe that my critical thinking instructor had a word for that- fighting!

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

I agree 100% with the OP and often just move on. There are many times when I've got a nice laid out response and I'm ready to hit reply when I think, "you know, the person won't agree with my point, anyway, and I don't want to get into a 10 page argument".
.

I'd say I type up 5 replies and close them without ever posting for every one that actually gets posted- Once in awhile someone will post something completely idiotic that gets my goat and I'll type up something snarky in return- nothing different than I'd do in person though- I've no patience for that sort of thing on the net or otherwise.

[SteveC]

I think this is a great thread. I changed my posting habits a couple years ago based on a baseball message board I also posted to. Sports boards are like one big edition war thread, but have the added benefit of having lots of numbers and statistics to argue along with the opinions.

So a couple years ago my team had this fantastic season, but throughout the whole time there were fans of our rivals who'd stop by and talk about how we were going to lose and that there was no way things were going to stay that good.

What I noticed that summer was that despite all that criticism (that eventually ended up being right...my team was in first place for 80% of the season and then didn't make the playoffs... D'oh!) I had this great year of enjoying baseball. I went to several games with my dad, started dating this great girl who also loved baseball, and got to a couple games with friends from college who I hadn't seen in a long time. It ultimately didn't matter what the team did, what mattered was that I had this fantastic summer.

I approach posting on gaming message boards in a similar manner now: does it really matter whether someone loves or hates 4E? No, what matters is that we're gaming and having a good time in our community. I mostly read threads about how to improve my gaming now, and only get pulled into arguments against my better nature (which still happens sometimes, I'll admit).

Debate is good and useful, but in my opinion it stops being worth spending time when the question changes from "how should this work/be made better?" to "is game X even worth my time?" I think we all know what we like enough to make the latter decision.

Anyway, good thread...those are my rambling thoughts.

--Steve

[Jeff Wilder]

Originally Posted by Greg K

I believe that my critical thinking instructor had a word for that- fighting!

Formulated -- of necessity -- by my friends and me in law school:

Discussion -- Talking about things. Can be vague, and include things like preference and weak opinions. There may be no disagreement between parties whatsoever.

Argument -- Presentation of the premises supporting a conclusion. The best arguments start with -- or at least quickly come to -- a recognition of which premises the parties hold in common as true, and the argument proceeds from there.

Debate -- A formal argument, with some (at least semi-)objective way to score, be it a moderator or "how many times Joe left Bob stammering for a response."

Quarrel -- Heated disagreement, usually with personal attacks and lots and lots of fallacies. Oh, and sarcasm. A quarrel can, and often does, have argumentative content, however. (Those make the most entertaining flames, IMO.)

Of all of these, I find argument and quarrel to be the most fun, for almost entirely different reasons. But the important thing, as far as these definitions go, is that I can -- and do, extremely often -- have arguments with my best friends in which nobody feels attacked in the slightest.

Anyway, I know it may seem odd to go to such lengths to establish those definitions, but it truly helps. If Joe wants to have a discussion, and Bob wants to have an argument, they can figure out in advance it won't work. Otherwise, Joe thinks they're discussing things, and Bob thinks they're arguing things, and hopefully it's pretty clear how that can go badly.

"Argument" is not a negative word. If any reader thinks it is, I urge you to reconsider. You're cheating yourself out of, at the very least, a useful word.

(As an aside, I wince everytime I hear someone say something like, "It's his opinion, and we have to respect it." That's so horribly, horribly wrong it should make your teeth ache. What we should respect is someone's right to have an opinion, not the opinion itself. Oh, and while I'm at it, there's a fundamental difference between an "opinion," and a "preference." The difference is truly worth learning.)

[dbm]

Personally I don't have difficulty avoiding arguments on the internet. In fact, I generally make it my business to avoid them.

When posting I remember two simple guides:

1) What positive outcome do I wish to achieve?

2) Do not feed the trolls.

Cheers,
Dan

[Crazy Jerome]

Originally Posted by Jeff Wilder

It takes even more for me to recognize names attached to well-presented, well-reasoned, helpful posts, unfortunately. I kinda wish EN World had a "Highlight" list, counterpart to the Ignore list, that would make posts by Highlighted posters more visible. That'd be pretty cool.)

I'd like the "highlight" list, too, though for different reasons. For better or worse, I remember posters fairly well. I don't hold grudges or anything of that nature, but there is a certain kind of passive/aggressive behavior that creeps just below the rules on message boards--that I really can't stand. There is a certain "nature" of a board that is the collective coming to terms with what is tolerated or not, the mods enforcement, the subject matter, etc. that is different from board to board and can change over time. I'm interested in a slice of certain conversations. A highlight list would let me focus on people who enjoy those kinds of conversations--and then read the whole thing--including people that I would be happy to ignore otherwise. It's not a case of like/dislike. Rather, it's a means of finding the conversations you want to find.

OTOH, I appreciate ignore lists far more for the ability of other people to ignore me, than vice versa. On another board, I have four or five people on an ignore list, most of them banned. I'm fairly certain, however, that I'm on several ignore lists. In any case, I'm a lot happier now that certain people never reply to me.

As to why I "discuss", it is because over the years (even before message boards), I observed that I often had a slant on things that was a minority viewpoint (or at least a little off from the majority even when I was largely in agreement). Not many people value it, but the people who do value it seem to value it a lot--maybe because there aren't that many of us. When I read someone with another minority, interesting slant besides my own, I value reading that. So I like to think for every person I tick off, there is someone who got some little nuggest out of what I said, even if they didn't buy the whole thing.

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

That would be pretty handy. What I would really like, though, is the ability to put myself on someone else's ignore list! Some people should really just not ever respond to my posts.

Unfortunately I don't use the ignore list myself, as it simply doesn't work. AFAIC, a working ignore list should scrub the entire existence of said ignored poster from the website.

Heh. Adding myself to an ignore list might be handy. I'd probably get myself in less trouble.

All this talk about ignore lists has me feeling terribly self conscious though. But, the earlier advice of JUST NOT POSTING is something I'm really trying to follow. Heck, there were three threads today that I hit the quick reply button, started typing and then realized it just wasn't going to get me anywhere.

Self censorship is a good thing.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by JoeGKushner

How about other people? Giving up on the arguements or keeping the "good fight" going?

Once upon a time, I was that guy: xkcd - A Webcomic - Duty Calls

...Especially when it came to matters dealing with protecting intellectual property- my profession IS Entertainment Lawyer, after all.

But when the firestorm erupted about WotC's recent change in pdf policy (preceded by a couple of heated threads about piracy in general), I stopped.

I went back over a couple of the piracy threads I'd participated in over the years.

I noticed I was seeing the same posters posting the same (erroneous) assertions about the law, posts defending questionable moral/ethical positions, etc.- even after I pointed out legal texts and court decisions to the contrary, or tracts from the giants of philosophy and other moral/ethical theorists.

IOW, my efforts changed nothing.

So in Post #43 (of New Year's Resolutions for 2009?) I resolved to abstain from any and all threads about this area- I haven't even visited the temporary forum ENWorld has set up.

I won't say its easy, either. I see some of those thread titles pop up and I can feel my pulse and respiration quicken and my face flush. I can hear my blood rush in my ears, and feel my blood pressure rise.

I want to rush in. I want to rush in like a rhetorical Paladin championing the cause of the various creators of IP. I've seen 1st hand what piracy does to them.

Then I remember I'm not getting paid to do it here, and go post in a Hive thread, "Help me create" a character or campaign thread, or something else much more enjoyable than tilting at windmills.

[PIM68]

There's no point arguing over personal preferences (game editions etc) except as a form of entertainment. As such you may as well be nice. I have my preferences and I vote for those with my time and my wallet.

As has been mentioned, forums are a poor substitute for face to face communication, so extra care is needed when you're missing vocal inflection and body language. A thing a lot of people miss.

Don't post when your tired or angry. If you can , walk away and come back another day. (Unless you're a Moderator, then indeed you can't really ignore what's said.)

If you're here because you love a game and want to support that game with your presence, may as well be constructive rather than destructive about it.

Live & let live.

[Jack7]

(2) Some people are hyper-literal to the point that they're incapable or unwilling to admit to ambiguity in anything.

(3) Some people post as if they're in a perpetual bad mood. Every post is snappish and sarcastic. "Terse" is a good day for these folks.

QFF (Quoted for funny). Because it made me laugh.

(As an aside, I wince everytime I hear someone say something like, "It's his opinion, and we have to respect it." That's so horribly, horribly wrong it should make your teeth ache. What we should respect is someone's right to have an opinion, not the opinion itself. Oh, and while I'm at it, there's a fundamental difference between an "opinion," and a "preference." The difference is truly worth learning.)

I'd agree here too, except that, people being people, sometimes when they say a thing, they do so informally. They might say, "It's his opinion, and we have to respect it" and then might (or might not) mean exactly what you said (What we should respect is someone's right to have an opinion, not the opinion itself) but have a looser way of expressing the sentiment.

With communications, people can be very different in method and yet very similar in content. And the reverse can be true as well. Which goes back to your point no. 3, or maybe, it is hyper-definitional in some cases, rather than hyper-literal. You know, assuming the other guy doesn't meet our "definitional qualifications" of how we'd say a thing, so he must not mean what we'd initially assume he couldn't have possibly thought, regardless of the fact that when it comes to words, at best they imply, but never fully contain.

In any case, in my opinion, sometimes you have to cut the other fella some slack until you can either figure out exactly what they are saying, or can get them to clarify it in some way. Then butcher their innards.

But to me two things would avoid most "getting upset with the other guy too much."

1. Most of the time people are arguing stuff about games around here. And entertainment, things like that. That's about all you need to say about that if you think about it awhile.

2. A little humor, the ability to laugh at yourself and the other guy, well it reminds you that laughing at yourself and the other guy is very normal. Cause I've never met a perfect fella and never seen one in a mirror either.

Though my wife did tell me that I came awful close to being a perfect idiot once. So that's something I guess.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Dice4Hire

Ignoring mods:

I was curious if it were possible to ignore mod posts and apparently it is. (Of course I unignored the mod immediately)

I do not think it should be possible to ignore mod posts.

Or do mods have two types of posts? Regular and unignorable?

Looks like a setting was missed when transferring to the new boards. It is no longer possible to Ignore mods. One can certainly ignore them (the old fashioned way), but at least everyone is guaranteed to be blessed by our opinions spot our warnings.

Cheers

[Rechan]

Another thing I've been trying to exercise for a while is, don't be the guy to go negative in a positive thread.

It's an inevitable thing, when you get a group of people together (especially on the internet) where the topic could be Cake, and what kind of cake everyone likes. And then some guy says, "I hate cake. I like pie." He basically just kicks the mood - generally positive feelings about cake - in the teeth and says the exact opposite.

His point may very well be valid, and I am not saying dude doesn't have the right to dislike cake or express that opinion. But, it's a downer. He may have better off finding a thread about dislike of cake, or love of pie, than kill the "I like Cake" vibe.

This isn't just about edition wars - it goes to far simpler things. Discussion of movies and music and things.

[billd91]

Originally Posted by Rechan

His point may very well be valid, and I am not saying dude doesn't have the right to dislike cake or express that opinion. But, it's a downer. He may have better off finding a thread about dislike of cake, or love of pie, than kill the "I like Cake" vibe.

Trouble is, some discussions turn into echo chambers and could benefit from an alternative viewpoint that tones down the frenzy of positive puffery. But there really is a fine line between this sort of viewpoint and a blatant threadcrap and it's a good idea to be sure you're doing the former rather than the latter.

[Dedekind]

I almost posted in the "Is D&D Sexist?" thread but stopped, thanks to this thread.