It's hard to avoid arguing

[JoeGKushner]

Some of the threads I've seen lately get so derailed by people arguing the same points over and over again.

And I know the mods have told me a time or two to tone it down a notch.

It's hard to avoid arguing isn't it?

It's hard to avoid hitting the old reply button.

But man, I'm trying harder and harder lately. It's just not worth it. No one ever goes, "Man, that's an awesome point. I've completely changed my mind. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction."

How about other people? Giving up on the arguements or keeping the "good fight" going?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Mustrum Ridcully - fighting the good fight since January 2002.

I am trying to stop, and sometimes I think I get better. But sometimes I think not replying ain't enough. Not reading is also required, because whenever I see something that I just don't agree with and that seems to conflate opinion with fact, I want to "correct" the statement. Maybe the poster itself can't be helped, but I don't want other people to get the same idea!

But do I really have to care that much?

[Papa-DRB]

If you folks want to argue, fine, but keep it out of all the other threads. In this one "Elephant in the room/thread Forked Thread: Pathfinder - sell me", I was interested in some of the view points and even contributed myself, but then the:

xxx suxs, no it doesn't, yes it does... GMAFB. I am tired of the thread pollution.

[Fallen Seraph]

I usually nowadays just avoid threads that have devolved into arguments. With at the most making a post just stating my view in a neutral manner, of the main debate, without trying to ride anyone (usually gets lost in all the arguing though).

Occasionally I do jump into arguing, but try to keep that to a minimum as possible.

[drothgery]

Originally Posted by JoeGKushner

How about other people? Giving up on the arguements or keeping the "good fight" going?

If you find that you're always arguing with the same one or two people, you might add them to your ignore list. There are only two people on mine, but since an argument with one of them got me the only warning from the mods I've picked up here ever (and I've been around here since Eric was running things), I think it was definitely a good idea.

[alleynbard]

I really try not to argue. I am often pretty good at it, but sometimes I fail. There have been a few times where I typed out a response and then found myself erasing it all and not posting. Perhaps all I needed was to vent? I don't know. But I am usually happier that I gained control over my inclination to fight. Fighting back seems to be something inherent in my family line.

Generally, I was making a habit of ignoring certain kinds of posts. Then I finally figured out how the ignore function works and now my mind is at ease. It creates holes in discussions but I am okay with that. The only issue is I can still read the quoted statements of those I ignore. But I have now developed the habit of glossing over those posts. Does wonders for my blood pressure.

[Nymrohd]

I often will start a reply at this forums and elsewhere to decide midway that it is either not worth my time or trouble or simply pointless. Many people don't. The internet and the anonymity it affords oft function as a lense to human arrogance and idiocy (if there really is a difference between the two).

And yeah ignore lists are useful. Though it depends on the forum. Here I have noone in my ignore list technically, but there are a couple of people that I simply will never reply to however much I might like to. Still ignoring them might make some threads unreadable and one at least often has some useful information to provide (alongside a good dose of bile).

[Filcher]

I've been actively working not to argue. But there is a part of me that wonders if it isn't a self-regulating mechanism (including, unfortunately, the inevitable lockdowns).

For instance, let's say your favorite game is about unicorns. 1/2 of ENworld loves it, but has agreed not to argue. The other 1/2 hates Unicornicon, and has no qualms about saying so in every thread.

Once a week you post something about how you love Unicornicon, and I come in an act like a jerk. You don't argue with me. By the end of the year it will appear that ENworld hates Unicornicon, and all my posted edicts against the game appear as unprotested truths.

Maybe? I dunno. But that's what fires me up to argue, and it is what I'm trying to get away from.

[Cadfan]

I've updated my ignore list again, and find that I get into fewer arguments now.

Its an invaluable feature. I only wish that it wasn't buried in the user preferences. It used to be part of the drop down menu under to people's screen names.

There are some people on this forum who are genuine kooks and flat out trolls. The forum rules do not actually prohibit trolling so long as you do so in a particular manner, and they're very good at it. Blocking them is the only thing you can do.

Unfortunately this means that a fair percentage of the threads in the general forum are incomprehensible to me, what with all of the deleted posts.

[Agamon]

I just state my own opinion and let others have their own opinions. Whether I believe those opinions are misguided doesn't really matter, no one's mind is going to be changed here, as has been proven endlessly already.

[CleverNickName]

I know what you mean. This is two-thirds of the reason why I don't post as much as I used to.

[Primitive Screwhead]

Originally Posted by JoeGKushner

Some of the threads I've seen lately get so derailed by people arguing the same points over and over again.
...How about other people? Giving up on the arguements or keeping the "good fight" going?

IME, there are two types of arguments here on EnWorld

1) Reasoned discusion where the debate moves from a point of contention, resolves that contention and then moves to the next.

2) Discussion that can be boiled down to a debate over a single point and both sides refusing to move from thier stated POV.

THe former is great and I love to debate, argue, and get into some heated disagreements on.

Regretfully the former is more likely and I have heavily curtailed my posting frequency.... and edit pretty much anything I post here.
Its actually been a useful practice to translate to my professional work life

So, to answer JoeGKushner.. I will keep up the good fight with you, Raven Crowking, HyperSmurf, and a select few others that have proven that they can argue without getting stuck.



I have not used the ignore list option... I prefer the reminders as to why I am ignoring someone. Besides, the eternal optimist {that I am not} says that people can change!

[Jack99]

Some days, it's not hard to avoid. Then comes the bad days, and I find it so much easier to get annoyed by something or someone, and I forget that I promised myself to be a good boy. Luckily for me, we have some great mods around here, who help keep weak-willed people such as myself in check.

I do not personally believe in the /ignore function. I think everybody has good points at one time or another. In all my years online, I have only ever /ignored one person, and that was in a MMO. He was called Hittler and spamming racial slurs against Jews in the common channel. According to the GM, they received 400+ reports in less than 20 second, a new record at the time.

[Victim]

It's rare, but I have seen people change their mind. And even if I'm not changing anyone's mind, the process of formulating a post to defend or attack a position can help me sharpen or define my own thoughts on the matter, as I go from a general disagreement to looking at reasons, providing evidence, etc.

Of course, the key word there is can. Some posts are purely emotional or circular. Not a whole lot can be done there, especially when people often don't like when others try to address their reasons for not liking something.. Others can be so overdone that all the arguments and counterarguments have been posted several times already - a post is just chipping in with a prepackaged statement; there's not a whole lot of new thought being put into it.

I sort of thought the point of a messageboard was to argue with people. If everyone agreed, what would there be to talk about? A whole thread of people saying the same thing is pretty redundant.

[Mikaze]

Folks putting a little bit of effort into keeping the snark in their pants and hyperbole in the bedroom where it belongs would go a long way towards avoiding this issue.

[Piratecat]

I'm a huge believer in the concept that I can disagree with someone's point, and that doesn't make them a bad person*. And I'll tell you, when stepping in as a moderator I often have to exercise every single ounce of self-control I have not to scream "What are you saying? You're a freaking idiot to claim that! Arggh, banbanbanbanBAN!"

But I've learned not to moderate when I'm really tired or in a particularly bad mood, and I've learned to step back when moderating a subject that's really important to me.

Most people here are really interesting and reasonable. A few folks end up unable to shift off a point; we inevitable warn them, and they either get better or leave. A few folks, mostly bullies, go out of their way to pick fights, and I feel no regret about bidding them adieu.

Thing is, though, I hate babysitting. Some of my favorite posters had a rough start, and I'd rather give people the opportunity to act like adults than I would ban indiscriminately. It's only after a few repeats of showing that they can't handle polite conversation that we boot folks; I always feel bad about the threads that are sullied in the mean time (and we work to minimize those), but I think it's better for the boards and the community in the long run.



* There are a few exceptions. If you voted against bullywugs on WotC's latest poll, watch your back, buddy. Just saying.

[Harr]

What I find vexing is the amount of people here that are completely unconcerned with playing the game, how to get better at playing the game, but fascinated with running circles around academic and rhetorical theories about the validity of opinions and stances.

For example? I post in a thread where a guy is geniunely asking for help on how to improve his game. I post many details, guidances, tips, etc that I think will actually and practically help this guy. Among those things I post, I include an explanatory passage where I say I don't do any "roleplaying" even though I play 4e because my players think it's silly, and I like the boardgaming aspect of the game more.

What do you think happens? A nice discussion of what the various tips and details of my game imply and how the might or might not improve somebody else's game? Heavens, no... I am immediately dunked in a splice-thread line-by-line rebuttal of how what I do IS actually "roleplaying", and the definition of what "roleplaying" is.

Never mind the OP and helping him; never mind the topic of the thread. Clearly my saying that I don't roleplay is bigger than any of that; it MUST be stamped out.

This is something that happens time and time and time again around here. I originally arrived in these forums thinking something like "Wow, a bunch of people who game and who help each other learn how to game better", now it's more like "Lets argue about who really roleplays and who doesn't, and then about whether WotC is evil or not".

(Edit -> And don't even get me started on the whole "Help, my 4e combats grind" ---> "No they don't! What grind? I dont see any grind. The solution is that your combats don't actually grind," thing.)

But eh, of course everybody's entitled to say what they want, I'm noone to stop them from doing so, it just gets a little.. vexing sometimes.

[Jack7]

I'm with PS and PC on this one.

Debate is great for the soul, and it helps people to improve and hone and test their ideas.

Arguing just for the sake of saying, "you're an idiot," or whatever the insult du jour, it ain't made for me.

I'll just bow out.
If someone gets all riled up by my viewpoint, then I've always got my blog or some other place to say my piece. Or, not say it, if it's not really important enough to waste my time thinking about.

[Rechan]

Oh, I fight the good fight. I'm very set in my ways, opinionated, and I ain't budging once I dig in my trench. Anything else is losing face. My knee jerk reflex is mighty! I love a good fight, it gets my blood flowing. But it consumes me completely. I'm only interested in being right and seeing others tell me how right I am.

But, I too have been taking some steps.

First and foremost: Admit the above to myself. If I know how I behave, I can react to it. I know I've got a thin skin, a huge ego, a delicate pride, and poor impulse control. So I got to prevent the temptation, rather than depend on my weak judgment.

So first, I avoid threads where I have no business going. I'm not stepping into a 3e thread, or a Pathfinder thread, because I have no interest in those, and those involved are better off without me. I want them to enjoy themselves in their own corner.

Then is something I've been trying: once I've dug my trench, and defended my point, let it go. Once you're in an argument where neither side is going to budge, and you're just re-hashing your original point, there's no reason to continue. Otherwise, it's an exercise in dragging it out.

Finally, I keep my ignore list firmly in place. Out of sight, out of mind.

[Hereticus]

I will admit being in a bad mood since Thursday evening... when a game I worked hard to prepare for never happened.

The local 4.0E game in town ended when three of the five players other than myself either moved, or had family issues. We only ran ten games.

My on-line 3.5E game has pretty much came to a halt, for whatever reason.

I joined a new 4.0E game, and we've played for a half year now. We lost one DM due to a job change, and we are about to lose our second DM (and his wife) due to a job transfer. I travel an hour 15 minutes to that game, and it will continue, but another 20 minutes further away. That's too far to travel on a work night.

I ran an 8th level Delve Night for that group on another night for three weeks, and it went well. So I wanted to try DMing 4.0E again.

The local store owner said he had five or six players, but no DM. I volunteered, and despite that a 16th level adventure was a stretch for me (along with the the new PHB2 characters that I haven't seen played yet), I put alot of prep time into the game and in understanding the basics of the 16 character classes.

The game flopped, nobody showed up or bothered to email. Yeah I was a bit pissed.

I apologize if I've pissed anyone here off, that has not been my intention.

I specifically want to apologize to Pirate Cat who had to clean up after one of my rants, and to Rechan, who that rant was directed toward.

Whew... that's better, I got that out of my system.