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I was working on a place in my world where spirits of the fallen (soliders from a forgotten war) arise each night to do battle. Even when slain, they arise again the next night. They are hostile to anyone who comes near them, and will attack living foes along with their undying rivals.
For rules, I was considering making them minions that arise again the next night unless they take radiant damage (which destroys them utterly). But then something in my brain flagged up and said...
"Why use radiant damage when every night they are guaranteed XP? After ten nights (assuming a level appropriate encounter) they'd level. After a while, it wouldn't be worth it, but dropping a fireball into an undead army of minions is a guaranteed 9 dead minions, and a few other area-affect spells and power later they could clear the field, rest up, and do it again the next night."
(Before you say: "That's a minion/4e problem", replace "minion" with "low HD monster" and you'll see the same results).
Two thoughts enter my head: the first is obvious; don't give them XP beyond the first time they defeat them. But that seems unfair; they are technically in the same amount of danger each night. The ghosts don't do less damage or have weaker ACs, they are the same ghosts in the same rough encounter levels. (Akin to if PCs slay a room full of 5 kobolds and then walk into the next room a slay 4 more, you wouldn't withhold the XP from the latter kobolds just because they slew the former).
OTOH: I don't want an XP factory where each night they fight a bunch of ghosts and then go home, and viola one month later they're two-levels higher...
(The same idea can be applied to portals that summon demons at regular intervals or an icky black cauldrin that spits out a goblin a night).
Anyone got any good ideas to keep the concept but not create an infinite XP loop?
What I would do was make the number of undead increase every night, by a significant amount. Just say that the violence going on in the area is creating more undead*, or something like that. Makes sense to me. So if they just knock 'em down and camp up for some more XP, the next night give them a surprise when they are overwhelmed by masses of undead. Obviously the holy power of radiant damage will stop the increase if they are all destroyed.
*EDIT: causing more of the dead to arise from their slumber..sounds better
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Last edited by mach1.9pants; 17th May 2009 at 01:10 AM..
Anyone got any good ideas to keep the concept but not create an infinite XP loop?
Simplest way (without abandoning XP altogether) would be to only award XP for putting them to rest. Make it worth 2x the encounter's XP value (assuming they'll fight it once and fail to put it to rest, and learn enough to succeed the next time). 4e already has provisions for arbitrary XP giving (quests) so it shouldn't offend anyone's senses to have the special monsters of a quest not give xp themselves.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates perfectly why I quit giving out XP for kills many, many years ago (and, since the release of 4E, have quit using XP altogether).
Anyway, here's a proposal: Have the characters wake up the next day after fighting the ghosts with 1 less healing surge than normal. After a day, they'll recover... but next time they fight the ghosts, they'll wake up down by 2 healing surges, the third time down by 3, and so on (regardless of how much time passes between battles). Characters thus afflicted grow pale and wan. Food and drink begin to taste like ash. Color leaches out of the world.
Anyone who is reduced to zero surges by this effect dies and can't be resurrected. You wanted to fight the ghosts over and over again? Congratulations... now you get to fight them forever, because you just becameone of them.
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Last edited by Dausuul; 17th May 2009 at 02:49 AM..
How about making them illusionary in the sense they seem to be real and it only takes 1 hit to kill them, but if they actually "kill" a character, that character just needs to be revived from subdual damage or something like that.
Why don't you consolidate the horde of ghostly minions into a single hazard (and then mix in some tougher spirits to increase the challenge)? That way, only specific countermeasures and not some random fireball can truly overcome the challenge. That way, you should be able to make an interesting encounter and keep the XP gains under check.
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If your doing xp I think bullgrits ideal is a good one
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And this, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates perfectly why I quit giving out XP for kills many, many years ago (and, since the release of 4E, have quit using XP altogether).
Anyway, here's a proposal: Have the characters wake up the next day after fighting the ghosts with 1 less healing surge than normal. After a day, they'll recover... but next time they fight the ghosts, they'll wake up down by 2 healing surges, the third time down by 3, and so on (regardless of how much time passes between battles). Characters thus afflicted grow pale and wan. Food and drink begin to taste like ash. Color leaches out of the world.
Anyone who is reduced to zero surges by this effect dies and can't be resurrected. You wanted to fight the ghosts over and over again? Congratulations... now you get to fight them forever, because you just becameone of them.
I like this idea. It's not a something you could use for every "XP spawning machine", but hey, it's all about exceptional design.
Alternatively, I think I would give XP for the first regular fight, and XP again to figure out how to "disable" the "XP spawning machine". (That would be the general approach). Turning it off is a Quest...
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Option 1: Give them 0 XP the first time, but full monster xp the 'last/final' time.
Reasoning: You could argue that the spirits aren't being defeated, in which case the PCs would get 0 xp until they are able to utterly destroy the undead (in such case, I would make them worth "normal" monster XP; call them regular monsters but with only 1 hit point, and the power "Daily Revivification: At midnight the spirit warriors regenerate back to max hit points. If the spirit warrior received radiant damage, this power no longer functions.")
Option 2: Give them xp the first time, and minor quest reward xp the last/final time.
Reasoning: you could argue that they aren't defeated, but the PCs did overcome the encounter threat. In which case, I would say to give XP the first time, but not subsequent times (because subsequent times, the PCs KNOW that the undead spirits are less of a threat compared to their skill... i.e. minions. And then give a minor quest reward for the permanent radiant destruction of the spirits. Disclaimer: I would not use this justification if they aren't minions, since not being minions makes them more of a variable threat each time).
Basically, my point is, just remember, the moment they stop being "reasonable threats" to the PCs (be it by virture of tactics/skill/forehand knowledge) then they turn in to a 'bag of rats' which are not worth any xp. So you would give them xp either the first time they kill them, or the last time they kill them with radiant damage, but only one or the other -- that's how i'd do it anyway.
Personally, I lean towards option 2. But I'd also take in to consideration the chance of the PCs even encountering the situation a second time. if I have strong reason to believe that the PCs would never go back there again (i.e. they'll be far removed/busy with other things/etc) then I'd instead go with option 1.
Of course, I don't give out XP after each encounter, I give it out per session, so I could fiddle with it depending on how they ended up acting.
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What's wrong with them defeating the encounter and getting XP each time? I wouldn't set up a place were there are always monsters tio fight and then cheat the players out of XP because they fight the monsters you put there for them to fight.
Anyway, here's a proposal: Have the characters wake up the next day after fighting the ghosts with 1 less healing surge than normal. After a day, they'll recover... but next time they fight the ghosts, they'll wake up down by 2 healing surges, the third time down by 3, and so on (regardless of how much time passes between battles). Characters thus afflicted grow pale and wan. Food and drink begin to taste like ash. Color leaches out of the world.
Anyone who is reduced to zero surges by this effect dies and can't be resurrected. You wanted to fight the ghosts over and over again? Congratulations... now you get to fight them forever, because you just becameone of them.
XP only for "killing" them (radiant damage deaths, not mundane damage)
Shorting the reset time from "one night" to "one hour" (or even "one round") unless radiant damage is done. It speeds up the attrition of the PC resources and makes it less camping and more "OMGmakethemstop!!"
they are re-fighting the same war, and cant really harm the party...maybe just make them run in fear on a will attack or something
the party can eventually find the reason for the spirits not being able to rest and are award XP for the skill challenge / quest award
you could also through in something like
-a company wishes to build a road, mine etc local and the spirits are 'in the way' , or initial building etc has caused the spirits to rise up and continue their war.....perhaps a builder found an ancient war banner and the ghosts want it back OR some creature has been displaced by the builders, set up new residence under the battlefield and has burrowed into the tomb and caused the dead to rise etc
i have used these ideas a few times in past scenarios....
they are re-fighting the same war, and cant really harm the party...maybe just make them run in fear on a will attack or something
the party can eventually find the reason for the spirits not being able to rest and are award XP for the skill challenge / quest award
you could also through in something like
-a company wishes to build a road, mine etc local and the spirits are 'in the way' , or initial building etc has caused the spirits to rise up and continue their war.....perhaps a builder found an ancient war banner and the ghosts want it back OR some creature has been displaced by the builders, set up new residence under the battlefield and has burrowed into the tomb and caused the dead to rise etc
i have used these ideas a few times in past scenarios....
See, I was kinda looking for a "challenge" rather than just window dressing. Ghosts that ignore the PCs are a curiousity, but not what I want. I'm looking for the mavolence here, and the battle is an excuse to have a cool battle with an army of lost souls...
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