MtG, D&D and Me TITLE NAME EDIT-The thread where Joe apparently offends everyone

[joethelawyer]

I saw my first collectible card game tournament today. A bit late to the scene, I know, but I’m an old bastard. What can I say.


What drew me there was the hope that I had finally found a store in my state that sold RPG books other than 4e. Upon entering the place, I was taken back by the sheer number of pudgy teenage boys shuffling cards and eating junk food.


You see, I never understood the attraction of the whole card game thing. From Magic on down. I didn’t get the attraction when they first came out, and still don’t get it after having tried it a couple years ago. Back in the 90’s, when TSR was going under, not knowing the inside scoop, I blamed those card games for killing my hobby. I could never understand how D&D players could be lured away from D&D to play such a thing, forsaking the hobby and causing it to die off--like it was so obviously doing, since none of the bookstores or hobby stores stocked D&D books anymore. I never would have predicted that a card game company would eventually, with the release of the OGL, save and preserve the hobby for all time.


I’ll be 39 next week, my birthday falling on the next D&D Gameday (thanks WOTC!). I’ll be a few years older than Gygax was when he created D&D. It’s kind of odd to think that a guy my age created a game I loved so much as a kid, but I do see the connection in our common roots and interests.



Gygax was a history buff, particularly military history, which lead him to military miniatures wargaming. D&D was an offshoot of that experience. Likewise, I was a big history reader as a kid. After devouring the set of World Book Encyclopedias at home, at age 9 I was let loose in the local library to consume all the history, archaeology and biographies I could find. I wasn’t into sci-fi, and had never heard of fantasy books. I liked escaping into the past, discovering different cultures, understanding the great figures and the great events that shaped the world. When I was introduced to D&D as a freshman in High School, I saw it as a way to actually take part in the same sorts of things I had only read about. I was especially interested in medieval history at the time, so it was a perfect fit.


I was never a gamer, in that I never liked to play games like card games, board games, checkers, chess, or anything like that. I still don’t. As a kid, I liked to go out in the yard with my friends and make believe we were superheroes, or Planet of the Apes, or SWAT, or war, or cowboys and Indians, or King Kong v. Godzilla v Rodan v. the Smog Monster. The mechanics of those make believe games didn’t matter much to me. We just went with whatever we felt would be the right way to resolve all the conflicts, in order to have the game over by the time we were called inside for dinner. As such, the D&D mechanics didn’t matter that much to me. They were just a vehicle to let me play make-believe at the kitchen table with my brother.



I played D&D because I wanted to be someone great. Someone important who did big things. Growing up as I did, in the area I did, there wasn’t much hope of that in real life. It wasn’t even a possibility that went through my head. I expected my life to be: graduate from high school, work in a factory, have a family, grow old, and die. That’s what everyone I ever knew did. D&D let me be something more.


As we got older, our game changed as we changed. As my level of understanding of history and the real world grew, so did the game world we played in. Our shared love of history let my brother and I put all of that into the games we played, which allowed our game to grow in scope. We became bigger players on the fantasy world stage as our characters grew in level.


My love of fantasy novels began after I got into D&D. Starting with the Hobbit and LOtR, I eventually read every mainstream fantasy author for the next 20 years. Later I got into the boks that inspired Gygax---Leiber, Howard, Moorcock, etc. Fantasy novels didn’t get me into D&D, but they did complement my interest in history and in big things being played out on the world stage. To the extent that I could relate to the little guy who came from nothing but who went on to do big things, I would love the book all the more. Plus, the books fired up my imagination. No longer was my creativity limited to what happened in real history with real cultures. I could imagine anything I wanted to. It was all possible in my D&D universe.


I don’t look at D&D so much as a game, as I do a vehicle for the imagination. A means of escape to alternate realities which I only read about in fiction or non-fiction, where I could be whatever I wanted to be.


I think that’s why I never understood the collectible card game thing. It is just a game, no different than chess or monopoly, in that they don’t allow the same level of escape that D&D does. While they share common mythological elements like dragons and demons, it isn’t fantasy. It’s just a game. Even my short-lived experience into the MMORPG world left me feeling the same way. There was no bigger picture, just endless killing and looting, with ever more things to loot and kill. No immersion, just addiction. I don’t enjoy playing games. Never did. I enjoy imagining.


I took a break from D&D from the time 3.0 came out until late 2006. As such, I missed basically the whole 3.0/3.5 era. My roots are in the AD&D/2nd ed./Red Box world. Back in 2000, my brother and I and some friends bought the 3.0 core books, but never used them. When we decided to start playing again in late 2006, since 3.0 was what we had, it’s what we used. We didn’t even know there was a 3.5 or what d20 was all about until 2007.



After taking about 7 years off from the hobby, I find that both I and the hobby have changed a lot. For my part, I have learned more, and so bring more of that to the game. I am more multi-faceted, I have more depth as a person, and therefore so do my games.



Over the last year or two, as I reviewed more of the 3.0, 3.5 and d20 books that were published during my hiatus, I see that the game has changed too. As the 3.x game evolved, it became too rules focused for me. At times, even the houseruled 3.0 game we play, which is a lot like AD&D in feel, is too rules-cumbersome. The rules sometimes drag us out of the immersion of the scene we are in, whether that scene be combat or non-combat. It takes us out of the immersion of being part of GREAT EVENTS that shape the world. It seems that most of the splat books that came out, especially In the latter years, focused on combat and all things related to combat. Eventually, the next incarnation of the game followed that evolutionary path and became what appears to be primarily a tactical miniatures wargame. There seems to be far less of a focus on the fantasy immersion element than earlier editions of the game.


Seeing this card game tournament today made me think that this is the best route 4e could have taken for its survival. I think the electronic culture of video games, IM, MMORPG’s, and the constant structured activities in kids lives these days, to the extent that you don’t see kids going out and playing in the yard, making up games with whatever is at hand with their friends, has made the influences on kids today very different than mine. Therefore, the game they would enjoy playing would be very different than mine.


The end result is shown by the answer to this question: When was the last time you saw a kid today reading a non-school book just to learn something for the sake of learning? I don’t mean Wikipedia or web pages. I mean a big thick adult book on a non-fiction subject that they either bought or got from the library, which was totally unrelated to school, a rock band, or a video game or other aspects of popular culture? I think it’s telling that in the bookstore in which I am typing this rambling pile of words, there are exactly 2 ½ shelves of RPG books and 38 shelves of Manga. I counted. 38. For Japanese comic books. There are only 4 kids in the whole Barnes and Noble superstore on a Saturday afternoon, one of which is 7 and sitting next to me with her mother, whining that she wants more candy. The other 3 kids are teenage girls sitting over near the magazines reading tabloid style magazines.


If you characterize the game Dungeons and Dragons as a vehicle used to express your interests, then maybe latter day 3.5 and 4e are completely appropriate for today’s audience. They don’t get into the larger scope stuff in the core rules. It’s not about historical-based anything. It’s game mechanic based, where the game mechanic takes precedence over fantasy immersion, historical period immersion, or role-playing a character while in character, method-acting style, immersion. While you can use the core rules to make the game larger in scope, the core rules don’t have it as an assumption or an expectation that you would actually make a game as I described in the last sentence. The primary assumption seems to be that the bulk of the game is centered on tactical combat. The design of the game follows that assumption. As such, it seems to be that a lot of people trying to make a 4e game into another style of game other than tactical miniatures wargaming, are having a tougher time of it than in earlier editions.


I think this may be why so many (mostly older) gamers are getting into the old school gaming thing, or checking it out. We want to go back to a simpler thing which reminds us of simpler times. To a game where we can let our imaginations run free, and where the game mechanic was a means to that end, and not an end it and of itself.



With so many of us being older, having grown in knowledge, maturity, and depth, we realize we have less need of rules to get us where we want to go. It’s about the fantasy, the immersion, the history and the creativity it unleashes in us. Not the mechanics---the “game” part that makes me feel like I am playing Stratego or Poker or Battleship or Monopoly or an MMORPG or Diablo 2.


So, after drinking this (now cold) overpriced Chai tea, and after having wandered over to the 2 ½ shelves of RPG books in my ever-increasingly futile attempt to find a non-4e RPG book on a store’s bookshelf, I guess I’ll wander over to the history section and read about Vikings and imagine how I can incorporate that into my game next week. Even if I buy a Viking book though, I won’t be reading it tonight. Tonight I start the “Prince of Nothing” series, which looks to be right up my alley.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

With so many of us being older, having grown in knowledge, maturity, and depth, we realize we have less need of rules to get us where we want to go. It’s about the fantasy, the immersion, the history and the creativity it unleashes in us. Not the mechanics---the “game” part that makes me feel like I am playing Stratego or Poker or Battleship or Monopoly or an MMORPG or Diablo 2.

I get it. You're saying that old people are better than young people.

[Technik4]

Magic is a very different game from D&D. I personally enjoy both games.

Magic, to me, is a puzzle that can't be solved (deckbuilding) and an entertaining contest of wills (duels). The collection aspect also appeals to my small OCD side. I like the strict timing rules which can create layers of skill between opponents, but I also revel in quirky aspects of cards like trying to build tribal decks when there isn't support for it or coming up with interesting ways to win (attacking with only land!). The biggest turnoff is the price of admission, though once you have a sizable collection the upkeep is rather low (though it's not always easy to find a non-friend opponent willing to face older cards).

D&D also presents a puzzle, trying to fit a concept into numbers. Or trying to see a concept from numbers or some combination of the two. The more interesting aspect of the 'puzzle' is that sometimes flaws create better characters than ones you seem to 'solve' perfectly. Characters that you unintentionally poorly represent mechanically through a lack of rules knowledge may have to evolve in different ways than ones you plan out from level 1 to 20. D&D also appeals more to my creativity and imagination, literally allowing me to interact in any way I can think of. Instead of being a contest of wills, it presents complex social activities. Like not hating the DM that was just a rat bastard or the allied PC that turned on the party or building bonds with different characters and personalities. The turnoff of D&D is the necessity to have a group of like-minded people to play with, which is very difficult considering modern schedules (and for me personally, moving frequently which precludes playing with old friends).

While I am ten years younger than you (turning 30 in December, ugh) I would not categorize Magic as a game like Chess or Monopoly. In fact, from a complexity standpoint alone I think it is beyond most board games. It also requires a significant investment from the players in terms of creativity (assuming they aren't netdecking) and can be played in a variety of ways - limited vs constructed, vintage vs standard, casual vs tournament, etc. It certainly wasn't designed to necessarily appeal to everyone that liked D&D (contrast Gary Gygax with Richard Garfield). It changes based on how many pieces you have, which D&D does as well (to an extent - in D&D you can create the stuff you don't have, but it is certainly a different experience playing with the core 3 books and playing with a library of different expansion books).

Yet, D&D has always been a game too. It shares a complexity issue with Magic, as well as a general fantasy milieu of characters and settings. I started with D&D with some 1E books as a teenager and devoured them after 1 play session with a babysitter's boyfriend using an old module (and his not being too terribly interested in the game). The fact that I could make up whatever I wanted was an incredibly daunting yet fun challenge (ie- what did I want to do first?). My first death hurt, but I still remember the first dragon I took down (with my party's assistance). I remember a lot of the most heinous TPKs in games since then, and most of my longest lived characters and their allies (and enemies).

Overall I'm trying to say that while they are dissimilar in many regards, they have many things in common too. It makes sense why the OP doesn't like Magic, but I wouldn't use that as an indictment of the entire future generation. Most people over the age of 20 did not grow up with the internet when they were children. I think it will have a severe impact on the way people gather information (lack of book reading as it is no longer as crucial) and organize thoughts (computers are systematic and logical and visually portrayed as such and having such tools impress you at a young age will undoubtedly have consequences that we can't foresee). I don't think 4E, despite its success*, is the way the game will continue into 5E and beyond. If it is, I think a new game may step forward to fill a hole, but if not the old ones still work as well as the day they were written.

*- I have not and probably will not purchase any 4E books and have no idea whether/how successful it has been.

[Wormwood]

Man, I miss Paul Lynde.

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And while we're on the subject!
Kids! They are just impossible to control!
Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll!
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Kaye?
What's the matter with kids today!

(of course, since my 4e group is composed of 30-40 year-olds---most of whom played D&D during the Carter administration---maybe I just don't get the point)

[Cadfan]

I wrote a big long post and then deleted it.

All I'll say is this: I suspect that your vision of How Things Used to Be, which I derive from your negative attitude about How Things Are, is largely nostalgia mixed with an assumption that your childhood experiences were far more broadly shared than they actually were. I spent my childhood in imaginative play, reading non fiction, etc, etc. Of course I also spent it playing games with rules and reading comic books from other countries, but that's beside the point. Anyways, I may have spent my childhood doing all the things you mentioned, but you know what? I was weird. Most people didn't do what I did, didn't grow up like that, and I suspect that when you were a kid it was no different. I'm sure your city now has a similar proportion of huge nerds like me as it did in the past, and I'm sure that percentage is low enough that you really shouldn't expect to encounter lots of them on a random sample in a bookstore on a Saturday afternoon.

That's about all I can write without turning this into a diatribe against old people and anyone who writes a "kids these days" essay. They're reductive, usually vaguely insulting, and typically speak much more about the author and the lens through which he views the world than about the alleged subject matter.

[Almacov]

I know from my experience, as a 19 year old who has used and perused material from BECMI to 4e, your comments on the youth of today don't really ring true. At the very least they don't for my group. While many people I've played with do enjoy computer games, and some even card games, the vast majority of them are still more interested in "fantasy immersion" than the nitty gritty mechanical details while playing RPGs. They're interested in being a part of deep, fantastic storylines, and contributing in ways beyond rolling dice. In fact, in the absence of that factor I don't think any of them would be interested in playing. The storytelling was often what made the game appealing in the '70s, and it's generally what makes it appealing now, Joe.

As for the rules, they're really just there to spice up conflict resolution and provide a framework of time, space, and abilities, which is exactly what they did in BECMI. From what I've seen, the added complexity of more recent editions often just serves to build and maintain tension. It's there to serve the experience.

[Metaphorazine]

I'm having trouble following the core theme of your essay here. On the one hand, it seems to be the usual "everything I loved about the past is dead, and you young-uns killed it!" diatribe, with some tangential stuff going on regarding the editions.

Are you saying 4e is the D&D we had to have? That it's just close enough to a video game to get the kids interested? Kids these days just aren't bright/quick/imaginative enough to play D&D the way I did when I was a boy? I'll get off my high horse now.

*hrumph*

This part, however, interested me greatly:

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

They don’t get into the larger scope stuff in the core rules. It’s not about historical-based anything. It’s game mechanic based, where the game mechanic takes precedence over fantasy immersion, historical period immersion, or role-playing a character while in character, method-acting style, immersion. While you can use the core rules to make the game larger in scope, the core rules don’t have it as an assumption or an expectation that you would actually make a game as I described in the last sentence. The primary assumption seems to be that the bulk of the game is centered on tactical combat.

Now, I'm only familiar with 4e. But what are you talking about here? D&D is a game. It has a game mechanic. 1e does, 4e does.

What can you do in 1e that you couldn't in 4e? What are you required to do in 1e that you aren't in 4e? In what way specifically does the older game make the game mechanic subordinate to "fantasy immersion, historical period immersion, or role-playing a character while in character, method-acting style, immersion."

I'd really like to know, because as I've said I'm only familiar with 4e. And it already seems like anything is possible. It'd be nice to know what I've missed...

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

You see, I never understood the attraction of the whole card game thing.

Same attraction as crossword puzzles, poker tournaments, auto races for some. For others, it could be the art, or the collections. Some people even like the story involved! Believe it or not!

I think that’s why I never understood the collectible card game thing. It is just a game, no different than chess or monopoly, in that they don’t allow the same level of escape that D&D does.

Tell that to the people making the game, especially the story parts. They have come up with some excellent themes which I have shamelessly cribbed for my games. Sure, you could just stick with the bare mechanics of the game, and play it that way (and the same applies to D&D for some!), but you can also engage your mind with Akroma. Gerrard. Nicol Bolas. Mishra and Urza. Take a look at Bosh, Slobad and Glissa. Learn exactly what Konda, Lord of Eiganjo took. Figure out the patterns of Ravnica, Lorwyn or Alara.

Then maybe you can see what you can imagine with Magic.

The end result is shown by the answer to this question: When was the last time you saw a kid today reading a non-school book just to learn something for the sake of learning?

Well, I haven't seen a kid reading at all today. I saw some at the store, but they were shopping with their parents. But I know my nephew LOVES getting non-fiction books on subjects like Dinosaurs, Pirates, the Hindenburg and more. He also loves Pokemon. I don't know what he's read today, he's several hundred miles away so I've not actually seen him reading recently either.

I think it’s telling that in the bookstore in which I am typing this rambling pile of words, there are exactly 2 ½ shelves of RPG books and 38 shelves of Manga. I counted. 38. For Japanese comic books.

Yeah, but they didn't take space away from the RPGs to make room for those Manga. If anything, it's the sci-fi and fantasy novels that suffered from it. But then Manga is a very diverse industry, covering all sorts of subjects from romance, to fighting fiction, to stuff that's better left unmentioned. And since it's published in volumes, it tends to take up a bit of space with duplicates too.

There are only 4 kids in the whole Barnes and Noble superstore on a Saturday afternoon, one of which is 7 and sitting next to me with her mother, whining that she wants more candy. The other 3 kids are teenage girls sitting over near the magazines reading tabloid style magazines.

Try getting more datapoints. Maybe all the other kids are at the library with the homeless folks.

PS, I bet you'd eventually hear some of the manga customers complaining about older things they wanted not being stocked either!

The HORROR!

As such, it seems to be that a lot of people trying to make a 4e game into another style of game other than tactical miniatures wargaming, are having a tougher time of it than in earlier editions.

Funny, I find it easier. True story.

[nightwyrm]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

PS, I bet you'd eventually hear some of the manga customers complaining about older things they wanted not being stocked either!

The HORROR!

Just go onto any manga/anime forum and you'll hear people complaining about how new shounen crap like Bleach and Naruto is replacing their good old Akira or Cowboy Bebop.

The "stuff was better back when I was young" complain is everywhere.

BTW...Magic players, they complain like hell whenever a new set, or new card face, or new rarity, or new anything comes out. The grass is always greener on the older side of the lawn.

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

I wrote a big long post and then deleted it.

All I'll say is this: I suspect that your vision of How Things Used to Be, which I derive from your negative attitude about How Things Are, is largely nostalgia mixed with an assumption that your childhood experiences were far more broadly shared than they actually were. I spent my childhood in imaginative play, reading non fiction, etc, etc. Of course I also spent it playing games with rules and reading comic books from other countries, but that's beside the point. Anyways, I may have spent my childhood doing all the things you mentioned, but you know what? I was weird. Most people didn't do what I did, didn't grow up like that, and I suspect that when you were a kid it was no different. I'm sure your city now has a similar proportion of huge nerds like me as it did in the past, and I'm sure that percentage is low enough that you really shouldn't expect to encounter lots of them on a random sample in a bookstore on a Saturday afternoon.

That's about all I can write without turning this into a diatribe against old people and anyone who writes a "kids these days" essay. They're reductive, usually vaguely insulting, and typically speak much more about the author and the lens through which he views the world than about the alleged subject matter.

I didn't write this to express a any great truths about anything. There is not a point I am trying to establish as right, just and true. Just writing out my point of view on something which, as with all points of view, are completely subjective and are usually based on nothing but the experiences and perceptions of the person possessing that point of view. I figured I'd throw it out there, and people might be interested, might not, or it might start an interesting discussion, or it might not. It's not meant to insult or antagonize, nor do I hold any ill will towards anyone. I mostly wrote it to help me organize and express a lot of thoughts I had on a few things the last couple weeks. Hence it's rambling nature, loosely tied together.

Everything evolves and changes. I'm just trying to get out my thoughts on where I come from, and point out why I like certain things and dislike others, and express my ideas as to why others may like certain things and dislike what I like.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by nightwyrm

The "stuff was better back when I was young" complain is everywhere.

And everywhen.

I watch a lot of History Channel shows- its amazing how often history repeats itself, especially the whole "things are crappy today, compared to way back when..." line of complaints.

[Hairfoot]

In fifteen years, 4E's young turks will be decrying whatever the new edition is and telling everyone how much better the game was back in 2009.

Only history will show if they'll be right or wrong, but either way they'll be angry that their opinions, based on long careers of gaming, are written off as worthless, baseless and purely the product of nostalgia and a fear of change.

[Cadfan]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

And everywhen.

I watch a lot of History Channel shows- its amazing how often history repeats itself, especially the whole "things are crappy today, compared to way back when..." line of complaints.

Actually, speaking of non fiction I read when I was a child because I was a huge nerd, some psychologists believe that there are certain personality templates out there into which large groups of people fall. I read this a long time ago, so I forget the terminology, but one of the templates was basically "the guy who always thinks stuff was better a generation ago." The idea was that these templates might explain why across thousands of miles, thousands of years, and vast cultural divides, "the guy who always thinks stuff was better a generation ago" sounds almost exactly the same, and usually has similar political views on certain key issues.

For full disclosure, "the guy who always thinks changes are good" was another template.

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Hairfoot

In fifteen years, 4E's young turks will be decrying whatever the new edition is and telling everyone how much better the game was back in 2009.

Only history will show if they'll be right or wrong, but either way they'll be angry that their opinions, based on long careers of gaming, are worthless, baseless and purely the product of nostalgia and a fear of change.

Exactly.

I'm not saying my opinions are right. Just that they're my opinions. Just like rectums, everyone's got one. I accept mine in all its irrationality and crotchity-ness. I'm not looking for anyone else to. Just letting you all know what mine is. It's not even worth arguing the merits of it because, like all opinions, its not really debatable. It just is.

Be warned though, it might change tomorrow for no good reason whatsoever.

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

Actually, speaking of non fiction I read when I was a child because I was a huge nerd, some psychologists believe that there are certain personality templates out there into which large groups of people fall. I read this a long time ago, so I forget the terminology, but one of the templates was basically "the guy who always thinks stuff was better a generation ago." The idea was that these templates might explain why across thousands of miles, thousands of years, and vast cultural divides, "the guy who always thinks stuff was better a generation ago" sounds almost exactly the same, and usually has similar political views on certain key issues.

For full disclosure, "the guy who always thinks changes are good" was another template.

As a fellow nerd, just to add to that, I read a book in college (when I should have been reading school books of course) called Human Ethology. Written by a guy named Ibel Ibesfeld, or something like that. He was writing about the genetic/biological roots of certain behaviors which are shared across cultures which have no cultural points of interaction.

Some examples he used were how adult men always talked in a higher pitched voice to children when trying to gain their attention and favor. That was the same no matter where they came from.

The main thrust of the approach though was to treat people as animals and their behavior as that of animals, similar to other mammals. It was a biological approach to understanding human behavior and how basically animal behavior manifests in a complex society. Very interesting stuff.

Since most biological behavior comes down to means to survive, reproduce to perpetuate your genetic line, and then secondarily the genetic line of your relatives and then your species, my gut is that the archetype of the guy who thinks it was always better in the past is that of a survival mechanism which knows that in this past I did this and survived, therefore it must be a good behavior to emulate in order for you to survive.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

I'm just trying to get out my thoughts on where I come from, and point out why I like certain things and dislike others, and express my ideas as to why others may like certain things and dislike what I like.

You may want to try concentrating more on the former than on the latter. Your own self-analysis is useful to you, maybe, but the other can come across a bit more negatively.

Might also help to take a look at how much of everything you've said has already been put forth...sometimes years ago, and the responses to it.

Oh, and you may want to look up Socio-biology.

[Aus_Snow]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

I think the electronic culture of video games, IM, MMORPG’s, and the constant structured activities in kids lives these days, to the extent that you don’t see kids going out and playing in the yard, making up games with whatever is at hand with their friends, has made the influences on kids today very different than mine. Therefore, the game they would enjoy playing would be very different than mine.

But you do. Well, I do. Quite a lot.

The end result is shown by the answer to this question: When was the last time you saw a kid today reading a non-school book just to learn something for the sake of learning? I don’t mean Wikipedia or web pages. I mean a big thick adult book on a non-fiction subject that they either bought or got from the library, which was totally unrelated to school, a rock band, or a video game or other aspects of popular culture?

Very recently. No, I'm not just trying to be difficult here. I really do see this stuff (still) happening. All the time.

With so many of us being older, having grown in knowledge, maturity, and depth, we realize we have less need of rules to get us where we want to go. It’s about the fantasy, the immersion, the history and the creativity it unleashes in us. Not the mechanics---the “game” part that makes me feel like I am playing Stratego or Poker or Battleship or Monopoly or an MMORPG or Diablo 2.

Honestly, I believe that is not an age-dependent trait, but a. . . um, 'playstyle preference-dependent' one(?) - well, that'll do anyway.


But some of what I didn't quote - yeah, I get that.

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

You may want to try concentrating more on the former than on the latter. Your own self-analysis is useful to you, maybe, but the other can come across a bit more negatively.

Might also help to take a look at how much of everything you've said has already been put forth...sometimes years ago, and the responses to it.

Oh, and you may want to look up Socio-biology.

Well, I was born with a birth defect, which I've had to learn to accept over the years, as have everyone who has gotten to know me and ended up in my life. That little filter, presumably somewhere in the neck bone, between the brain and the mouth, which tells a normal person "Hey, Jackass, don't say that thought out loud, you'll probably insult or offend someone even though you don't mean it that way!" ---that filter is missing in me.



Socio-biology is interesting though. I've read a bit of it back in college.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

Well, I was born with a birth defect, which I've had to learn to accept over the years, as have everyone who has gotten to know me and ended up in my life. That little filter, presumably somewhere in the neck bone, between the brain and the mouth, which tells a normal person "Hey, Jackass, don't say that thought out loud, you'll probably insult or offend someone even though you don't mean it that way!" ---that filter is missing in me.

It's not a birth defect. It's actually a highly infectious disease with an irregular pattern of presentation, it can crop up at the oddest times with no warning, or it can be almost continual!

There is no known cure or vaccination. Current prevalence is somewhere in the 99th percentile.

Treatments range from vows of silence to locking yourself in a cave.

[Ariosto]

Joe, if B&N does not have Labyrinth Lord (basically a clone of the Moldvay / Cook / Marsh Basic and Expert sets) in stock, then you can have it special-ordered.

I have been pretty impressed by the turnout for RPGA 4E relative to Magic events at the FLGS. In both, I see a wide range of ages -- but that for 4E (from elementary schoolers to half-centenarians) is notably broader.

Still, the table-top gaming scene (from what I'm able to see of it, which may not be representative) seems to skew older than it once did.

There seems to be a similar shift in the (American, anyhow) comic-book business. A lot of "geek culture" seems to me to have become even more geeky, probably chasing a narrower target demographic with more per capita to spend on it.

Adjusted for inflation, the 4E books seem about as big-ticket for a kid as the 1E volumes were in their day. Many games' rulebooks (usually saddle stapled, although 2nd ed. RuneQuest was perfect bound) were offered separately as well as in boxed sets.

My impression is that pre-teens are as avid readers as ever. The really bookish were in the minority, I think, even before television. There seems to be a special appeal in books for those who have not yet mastered the "magic" of literacy. When first that door is opened, the novelty of access to such a treasure trove tends to be intoxicating. If that's not exactly timeless, I think it has at least a few generations left! Look at how much of the Internet is textual.

I am not well versed in it, but I gather that rather free-form narrative games played online have become quite popular with the younger set. That reminds me of some games my friends and I had cobbled together and were playing at the time we first encountered D&D.

It may be less common now for kids of that age and socioeconomic class just to wander over to Buddy's house and get into some game played with paper, pencil and dice (or any of other myriad ways we found to entertain ourselves).

So, there may well be a whole new set of "grass roots" sprouting quite outside our loop. I am inclined to think that if there is, then common ground is more likely to be found in rules-lighter games akin the seminal works of our hobby than in the latest manifestations of decadence.

On the other hand, the trend away from old-style roleplaying toward a "storytelling" mode may provide more points of contact. It is not what "D&D" means to me, and I find WotC's design conflicted and cumbersome, but it seems a more sensible course than trying to ape video games.

Those, I think, answer better the needs of a demographic that in former decades played D&D simply because it was the next best thing -- what was available when the World of Warcraft program seemed even more far out than a manned mission to Mars.