3e / OGL The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse

[Jack99]

Ever since I heard Shemeska was writing this one, I have been planning to buy it. But now, I am getting doubts. Should I buy the hardcover book, or should I simply snag the PDF in a couple of weeks.

So, I was wondering how good it is? Has anyone here bought it? Any opinions? Don't hold yourself back

Cheers

[DM_Jeff]

Hey! If you're referring to the new Paizo book on the planes, it's a 64-page perfect bound book. The short of it is this. If you're already using the classic Great Wheel, and everything is working A-OK, there's no compelling reason to own this book.

If however you are playing in Pathfinder's world of Golarion, or if you're tiring of the Great Wheel and want to punch it in the arm, or if you're a Planescape fan in general, a lot of this book is not only a good, entertaining read, but chock full of good info for running the planes in the Pathfinder setting.

I like it myself, and pretty much because of the writing and that my world of choice is Golarion. I picture this book being like an overlay, placed on top of the classic great wheel. Heaven morphs into the Pathfinder version, Hell, morphs into the Pathfinder version, etc.

Does that help?

-DM Jeff

[Stormborn]

Sounds neat. Anyone who has it want to give us a more detailed review?

[Zaukrie]

I'm 99% sure those are different books.

I don't think Shemmy's book is out yet. I am interested in seeing it, and if it is good, I'll likely buy it just for the read.

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by Zaukrie

I'm 99% sure those are different books.

I don't think Shemmy's book is out yet. I am interested in seeing it, and if it is good, I'll likely buy it just for the read.

The Great Beyond - A Guide to the Multiverse it's one book. The pdf is out to Pathfinder subscribers, and the physical copy has shipped to them. I think the physical book is for sale to anyone through Paizo, and the pdf is around a month out (same thing for Amazon selling the physical book - looking at June).

I'm seriously flattered and absolutely tickled pink if folks enjoy the book. I had a blast writing it, and I think it's probably the best material I've done to this point. And even if you don't run a campaign in Golarion, or use the cosmology of the Great Beyond, the design is such that you can easily plunder it for material for use in the Great Wheel, the 4e World Axis, the 3e FR Great Tree, etc. The primary CN outsider race, the Proteans, I actually address using them in different cosmologies in an article set for one of the next two issues of Kobold Quarterly. I'm not averse to anyone cherrypicking from my material certainly. If I can inspire anyone for a planar campaign, I'm thrilled.

I'll write a longer reply later since I'm currently at work.

[Zaukrie]

Cool, I totally read that 2nd post wrong, I thought he was talking about a different book.

Can't wait to see this book.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by DM_Jeff

Hey! If you're referring to the new Paizo book on the planes, it's a 64-page perfect bound book. The short of it is this. If you're already using the classic Great Wheel, and everything is working A-OK, there's no compelling reason to own this book.

If however you are playing in Pathfinder's world of Golarion, or if you're tiring of the Great Wheel and want to punch it in the arm, or if you're a Planescape fan in general, a lot of this book is not only a good, entertaining read, but chock full of good info for running the planes in the Pathfinder setting.

I like it myself, and pretty much because of the writing and that my world of choice is Golarion. I picture this book being like an overlay, placed on top of the classic great wheel. Heaven morphs into the Pathfinder version, Hell, morphs into the Pathfinder version, etc.

Does that help?

-DM Jeff

Definitely. Thanks.

Still interested in hearing more, before I commit to a dead-tree version.

[Mournblade94]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

The Great Beyond - A Guide to the Multiverse it's one book. The pdf is out to Pathfinder subscribers, and the physical copy has shipped to them. I think the physical book is for sale to anyone through Paizo, and the pdf is around a month out (same thing for Amazon selling the physical book - looking at June).

I'm seriously flattered and absolutely tickled pink if folks enjoy the book. I had a blast writing it, and I think it's probably the best material I've done to this point. And even if you don't run a campaign in Golarion, or use the cosmology of the Great Beyond, the design is such that you can easily plunder it for material for use in the Great Wheel, the 4e World Axis, the 3e FR Great Tree, etc. The primary CN outsider race, the Proteans, I actually address using them in different cosmologies in an article set for one of the next two issues of Kobold Quarterly. I'm not averse to anyone cherrypicking from my material certainly. If I can inspire anyone for a planar campaign, I'm thrilled.

I'll write a longer reply later since I'm currently at work.

Do you know when it will be available for purchase in game stores?

[avin]

It says PDF will be available at june 3, IIRC.

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by Jack99

Definitely. Thanks.

Still interested in hearing more, before I commit to a dead-tree version.

Jack, here's some more info on the book like you wanted.

Brief overview of the content:

There's an opening chapter giving a brief overview of the planes, the overall structure of Golarion's cosmology, a discussion of the history of the planes, the role and nature of the gods (very different from Planescape on that one, and very open ended by intent to let GMs answer some of the specifics), a section on the lifecycle of the mortal soul (with mortal life being effectively the mid-point in a grander progression), and finally a section on travel to the planes.

Next the planes of the inner sphere are covered:
Positive Energy
Negative Energy
Material Plane (tied to Positive)
Shadow (tied to Negative, effectively a warped attempt at a second creation by the natives of the void)
Ethereal (the misty border between the Material and Shadow, where the influence of Pos and Neg interact)

Elemental Planes in sequence (Air / Water / Earth / Fire), and discussion of border mixing and inclusions between normally non-interacting layers.

Then the Astral and the River of Souls. Time is spent discussing the poaching of souls by the astradaemons of Abbadon, and how ensuring the arrival of souls at their proper destination makes for strange bedfellows at times between races of outsiders normally at one anothers' throats.

Then the planes of the outer sphere. Essentially planes of the cardinal alignments drifting within a truly infinite Maelstrom, like islands of stability within a sea of potential. The cosmology intentionally lacks any of the rigidity that the Great Wheel sometimes gets accused of, and there are always room for additional planes to be added, given the nature of the chaotic sea it all exists within.

There's no monolithic Blood War. Things are much more dynamic, and much more evenly spread around. The CN Maelstrom wants to subsume everything back into itself, seeing the various lawful planes as a tyrannical infection of sorts, but at the same time, the Maelstrom's fury is almost equally reserved for the Abyss, which it views as a corruption of its own nature. The Abyss wars with itself and everyone else. The LG, LN, and LE planes engage in truly awesome campaigns into the Maelstrom and the Abyss, and Heaven's archons and the devils of the 9 Hells will at times go after one another just as fiercely. The Hells have also warred with the CG Azata, and the daemons of Abbadon while loathed universally by every other planar race, focus their attentions not on the politics of the outer planes, but on the eventual destruction of mortal life.

Finally there's a chapter on demiplanes (with a much more open definition than Planescape) and other planes that don't fit within the normal model of the cosmos. Any of these planes can be used outside of Golarion's cosmology, and I had a blast with them. For instance, there's Beselfyst the domain of the Barghest demigods of the goblinoid pantheon who - chaffing under Asmodeus's yoke- sold their loyalty to Lamashtu the Mother of Monsters, and saw their domain ripped from the Hells and drawn into the Abyss. There's the Dead Vault, a demiplanar prison to seal away Rovagug, created by the combined might of Asmodeus and the NG Saranrae. There's the First World of the fey (also the origin of Golarion's gnomes), a Dream Plane, a Plane of Time, etc. Then there's a smaller section of lots of minor demiplanes, including: the Crypt of the Dying Sun, the Fleshwarren, Freehold of the Rogue Angel, the Lost, the Machine Armory, the Mnemovore, and the Prison of the Laughing Fiend.

And then for the last section, the bestiary contains stats and flavor text/ecology information on the CN keketar proteans, NE astradaemons (inspired by the astraloths from my first Storyhour), LN axiomites (beings of living mathematics with the outward appearance of idealized humanoids, inspired by Planescape's moignos, and to a lesser extent the human-form replicators from Stargate), NG vulpinals (who also first appeared in my first Storyhour), and the fey Lurker in the Light.

The cover artwork by Wayne Reynolds
The keketar protean will make you not miss the slaadi
An axiomite, partially dissociated into a cloud of symbols and equations
The astradaemon in all its energy-draining, tentacled awesomeness

[catsclaw227]

That sounds great. I may buy it to plunder for my 4e game. Did I see you say somewhere up there that you might do some conversion/integration articles for KQ? Maybe a nice 4e one?

I know you aren't really a 4e fan, but this is your chance to help sell a Pathfinder book to some 4e players and get some goodwill along the way!

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

That sounds great. I may buy it to plunder for my 4e game. Did I see you say somewhere up there that you might do some conversion/integration articles for KQ? Maybe a nice 4e one?

I know you aren't really a 4e fan, but this is your chance to help sell a Pathfinder book to some 4e players and get some goodwill along the way!

*grin* The book is ripe for plundering, regardless of what system you use be it 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, or even my own frankenstein of 3e, 3.5, and whimsy.

Most of The Great Beyond is fluff, the vast majority actually outside of the bestiary section. I had some more crunchy sections on some planar items and spells, but they were chopped to keep the book under the word limit. Since Golarion's cosmology is intentionally more fluid (and even demiplanes are given a rationale for what they are and why they might appear in the Astral, Ethereal, or other places beyond those two planes) a lot of things can be plugged in pretty much anywhere. A number of concepts were plundered or adapted from my own pretty classical Planescape campaign I run for my own group.

As for KQ, I have an article (3.5) that should be appearing in the summer issue that covers a number of spells, items, and two artifacts linked to the proteans. Gets into a bit of their methods and some of their history and antagonism towards the Abyss as well. I actually talk about what role the proteans might play in different cosmologies versus the niche the slaadi have, and mention a few in particular. Also, I wouldn't be averse for anyone translating it to 4e stats once it's out, but I don't know the 4e system well enough at this point to do so, and I don't know the particulars of how kosher that would be for me to do. That said, I'd be tickled pink if anyone liked some of my concepts/monsters/etc enough to translate any crunch into a different system (be it 4e, Pathfinder, 2e, True20, or even Synnibarr).

I do have a second KQ article that I've pitched, and which Paizo and KQ seem cool with, but I haven't finished it to submit yet (it'll cover a trio of non-standard Abyssal fiends). Lots of fluff along with the crunch (at this point I'm probably going to wait till the Pathfinder rules are released and use that system, simply because I'm touching on stuff from Paizo's setting, it seems right to use their new system). Again, I'd be flattered like heck if anyone translated things to other systems.

And if folks happen to like The Great Beyond, Paizo is going to be releasing a planar module Beyond the Vault of Souls which was written by none other than Colin McComb (of Planescape fame, and Birthright, etc). I've read it, it's awesome, and I did one of the monster writeups in its bestiary.

Perhaps I should write up a planar Golarion one-shot game and offer to run it for anyone at GenCon?

[Jack99]

Thanks Shemeska. You have just sold me on your book. It sounds great, with a lot of stuff that can make my 4e cosmology more interesting.

Cheers

[dm4hire]

This product hit my radar as soon as it sprung up on Paizo's website. I have been a long time fan of Planescape so anything that is remotely close to it tends to be a must have for me. After reading your write up Shemeska, I have to say that my intentions were correct. Thanks for replying to the IP's post!

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by dm4hire

This product hit my radar as soon as it sprung up on Paizo's website. I have been a long time fan of Planescape so anything that is remotely close to it tends to be a must have for me. After reading your write up Shemeska, I have to say that my intentions were correct. Thanks for replying to the IP's post!

I hope that you like it.

Planescape was a gigantic influence for me on this book, and in general as far as campaign content, themes, play style, etc. Very much a thematic child of that setting, but at the same time, it has some very clear breaks in a few areas (some necessitated by being unable to use classic monsters that are very much WotC IP like Slaadi, gith, and a bunch of proper names like tanar'ri, yugoloth, etc). My influences are likely very apparent, but it's a product and a setting that takes whatever concepts it pays homage to, and really makes them its own. At least that's my intention.

Following in the footsteps of some of Paizo's books like Classic Monsters Revisited, I had the opportunity to rewrite the fluff on a lot of classic planar monsters, given both IP I couldn't use, or needing to change them either to fit within a different cosmology, or to perhaps make their concept a bit more clear. The agathions (formerly guardinals) and angels (formerly aasimon) for instance are now two sides of the same NG coin, one more introspective and focused on defending their natives plane and serving as bodhisattva-like figures to newly arriving souls, while the angels focus outwards, taking a proactive approach to whatever evil (like the Abyss and Abbadon) would threaten those under their watch.

The daemons (formerly yugoloths) don't suffer as a third wheel of evil, stuck between the Abyss and the Hells, as they now represent the concept of death/oblivion, devouring souls like a plague upon the multiverse and envisioning a sterilized and desolate material plane. They care nothing for spiritual corruption, they care nothing for carnage and chaos and destruction, they simply want to snuff out the stars and listen to the final, fading pulse of the last mortal creature - all for reasons they feel but struggle to define, perhaps precisely because they're the only fiendish race exclusively produced from mortal souls. They're almost a selfish, suicidal urge on the part of the cosmos, too sick of its own self to continue, or a flaw in creation. Lots of implications to run with as a DM there.

But it's obscenely late and I'm moving tommorow, so I think I've blabbed enough about the book for the moment. I've posted other comments and such on Paizo's boards, and a while back I had an interview about the book posted over on Planewalker that has some more general comments about the content of the book, etc.