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Though here's a question: if you take out the magical item economy, what would gold be used for? That's pretty much the only thing that you can buy, outside of alchemical items.
Well, you could make the world have an actually sensible economy.
Equipment repair costs. Transportation. Living expenses. Henchmen. Strongholds and such.
If you remove magic items from the equation, you can make the amount of money the party comes across into a reasonable amount for the setting.
I mean, 3 million gold for a sword? Seriously? When the average laborer earns, what, 1 sp or 1 gp a day? Something there is just not right.
__________________ While I play D&D, it is not my game of choice, regardless of edition.
"You're insane AND Jurassic, GW." - garyh
"The reverse side also has a reverse side." - Japanese proverb
----- Steamworks: A guide for introducing technology to a fantasy setting. (d20) Journey: The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath your feet... (Work in progress)
I mean, 3 million gold for a sword? Seriously? When the average laborer earns, what, 1 sp or 1 gp a day? Something there is just not right.
Nice hyperbole. What's your point? That the average laborer should ever be close to being able to buy a +6 sword? Because in the real world, there are certainly no luxury items that average people can never even come close to purchasing....
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Well, you could make the world have an actually sensible economy.
Equipment repair costs. Transportation. Living expenses. Henchmen. Strongholds and such.
Yeah, but I'm no economist, and I abhore bookkeeping. I don't even make my PCs track their ammo and rations, because I assume their characters will make sure they have what they need.
So, has anyone done up an Artifact style writeup for the classic 1e version of the gauntlet of ogre power or better yet how would you writeup the trifecta - gauntlets, belt and hammer?
As an aside, what's your favourite artifact in the 4e writeup? I got to go with WHELM from Open Grave....
I disagree. The internet only enables faster communication between distant groups of gamers. It's up to an individual to allow such communication to ruin thier D&D.
I disagree. The internet only enables faster communication between distant groups of gamers. It's up to an individual to allow such communication to ruin thier D&D.
As a general rule, people are lemnings - if they read on the interweb that X class is broken, they will believe it, even if there has never been an issue before.
When I say that the internet has ruined D&D, I am saying that I think it did a lot more bad than good, at least for many people. Luckily for me, it has never been an issue for our group, since most of my players never visit D&D boards.
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
So, has anyone done up an Artifact style writeup for the classic 1e version of the gauntlet of ogre power or better yet how would you writeup the trifecta - gauntlets, belt and hammer?
Here is a shot at it:
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Gauntlets of Ogre Power Heroic Level Large gauntlets made from tanned ogre hide.
Body Slot: Hands
Property: Your Strength score rises to 18 (if higher, there is no change).
Prower (at-will, martial): Standard action. You smash someone with your fists. Make a melee attack using Strength +2 vs. AC; on a hit, you deal 1d6 + Strength modifier damage. This attack is considered a melee basic attack.
Goals:
To show how strong the gauntlets make the wearer
To kill, maim, and do violence in general
To cow all others into bowing down before the wearer
Roleplaying:
The Gauntlets of Ogre Power are the classic bully: they can't stand weakness, they enjoy pushing around anyone weaker than them, and they like to show off.
CONCORDANCE
Code:
Starting Score.....................................5
Owner is humanoid (half-orc, goblin, gnoll, etc.)..+1
Owner murders someone with his bare hands (max
once per day).....................................+1
Owner wields a blunt, crushing weapon..............+1
Owner wields no weapon or implement at all.........+2
Owner beats the tar out of someone higher on the
social ladder, taking their position..............+2
Owner wields a sharp stabbing or slashing weapon...-1
Owner is a dwarf or elf............................-1
Owner avoids the chance for bloodshed..............-1
Owner avoids showing off his strength..............-2
Owner turns down a challenge involving strength....-2
Owner ignores the opportunity to bully a much
weaker creature...................................-2
Owner is ordered or commanded to do something, and
does not immediately attack in response...........-2
All the above stack.
Pleased (16-20) "I am the strongest man in the world! What are you looking at? You want to go? Sissy."
The Gauntlets are pleased with the wearer's willingness to bully the weak.
Property: The wearer's Strength score rises to 22 (if higher, there is no change).
Power (encounter, martial): Standard action. Requires a boulder or some other large object. Make a ranged 5/10 attack using Strength +2 vs. Reflex. On a hit, the target takes 3d8 + Strength modifier damage, is pushed 3 squares, and falls prone.
Power (encounter, fear): Minor action. Make a close burst 5 attack using Strength vs. Will against all enemies in the burst. On a hit, the target suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Power (daily): Standard action. Make a melee attack using Strength vs. Fortitude against a wall, pillar, or other construction. On a hit, you destroy the construction with a roar. Your DM will determine the effects.
Satisfied (12-15) "You guys are all such wimps compared to me."
The Gauntlets see a lot of potential for self-affirming violence in the wearer.
Property: The wearer's Strength score rises to 20 (if higher, there is no change).
Power (encounter, martial): Standard action. Make a melee attack using Strength +2 vs. Fortitude. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 + Strength modifier damage and is Grabbed. Sustain minor; grabbed targets only: With a minor action, you can choke or squeeze the life out of the target, dealing 10 damage. Special: At least one hand must be free to use this power.
Normal (5-11) "I feel so strong and powerful when I put these on."
The Guantlets give the wearer some portion of their power, but they are always on the lookout for someone who will rise to the top of the heap.
Unsatisfied (1-4) "These gauntlets think I'm weak... and I'm starting to agree."
.
Property: The wearer takes a -2 penalty to Athletics checks.
Property: The wearer's Strength score is reduced by 2.
Special: Once per encounter, at any time, the Gauntlets drop everything in your hands and clench into fists (save ends).
Angered (0 or lower) ""
.
Property: You take a -5 penalty to Athletics and Acrobatics checks.
Property: Your Strength score is reduced by 6.
Special: Once per encounter, when you are first bloodied, the Gauntlets punch you in the face! The Gauntlets make an attack against your Fortitude defense, rolling 1d20 + your level. If the attack hits, you take 2d6+6 damage.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
Though here's a question: if you take out the magical item economy, what would gold be used for? That's pretty much the only thing that you can buy, outside of alchemical items.
Ale
Whores
Hirelings
Feasts
Land
Castles
Prosperity
Nice hyperbole. What's your point? That the average laborer should ever be close to being able to buy a +6 sword? Because in the real world, there are certainly no luxury items that average people can never even come close to purchasing....
I don't think you know what hyperbole means, because there are indeed weapons in the PH that cost 3 million gp. I know I'm poking at your favorite game and all, but at least make sense when you try to defend it.
You're right, the average laborer shouldn't be able to afford a "+6 sword" (which has a value that is hard to quantify, IMO, due to the lack of information as to what, exactly, "+6" means in terms of materials required and such). Heck, the average laborer really shouldn't be able to afford any magical item of any degree.
However, the problem is that the gap between what the laborer can afford and the cost of the weapon in question (+6, in this case) is ridiculous. Going off of what an average laborer earns a day, you can begin constructing a reasonable economy based off of that - how much food will generally cost, of varying qualities; how much various materials will cost; and so forth. This isn't even getting into adjusting these values based upon how common they are in a given location, but you see what I'm getting at.
At no point, with the model I'm talking about, do you reach a point where 3 million gold becomes an even vaguely reasonable cost for an item. Even if an individual were to charge that amount, there would be no one capable of buying it.
It's a question of scaling. 4e uses a somewhat exponential system to determine costs of things. I don't think that's fair or reasonable, and IMO sets up a wholly unrealistic economy, to the point of being completely and utterly untenable if you try to deal with things outside of the PH - if you try to make the prices of things like strongholds meaningful to the PCs (ie, it's not just a drop in the bucket), the costs become so outrageous that no one else in the world could afford them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rechan
Yeah, but I'm no economist, and I abhore bookkeeping. I don't even make my PCs track their ammo and rations, because I assume their characters will make sure they have what they need.
I'd say that any system that wanted to have a reasonable economy should make it fairly easy to keep track of these things; you're right, most DMs aren't economists and aren't going to want to do a lot of bookkeeping. My group is probably a little strange that we are greatly concerned about a lot of these kinds of things; we once spent an hour or so (in the middle of a game) discussing economics in 3.5, and how unreasonable that system was, which was part of what made me decide that 3.5 was not the game for me.
As for ammo and rations... I rather like making PCs keep track of these things, and I'd like an economic system that ensures that the costs of these items stays at least somewhat relevant. In my mind, the fantastic needs to be grounded in reality, or else it loses something.
Yes, you can go to the mountains to kill the dragon there, but you'll need to make sure you have enough food, water, and ammo, and supplies to fix your wagon if it breaks down on the way there or back...
__________________ While I play D&D, it is not my game of choice, regardless of edition.
"You're insane AND Jurassic, GW." - garyh
"The reverse side also has a reverse side." - Japanese proverb
----- Steamworks: A guide for introducing technology to a fantasy setting. (d20) Journey: The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath your feet... (Work in progress)
At no point, with the model I'm talking about, do you reach a point where 3 million gold becomes an even vaguely reasonable cost for an item. Even if an individual were to charge that amount, there would be no one capable of buying it.
I'm not positive, but are you limiting your model to a standard medieval society? I haven't participated in an epic-level D&D game thus-far, but of those I've read about, you tend to expand beyond the base society at those levels.
A noble or even a king may not be able to spend 3 million gold on a magic sword...but perhaps a Hound Archon could purchase one from the City of Brass, etc. etc.
__________________ signed Jere, Lord of Pendragon
"Raven dark but beautiful, in a malevolent sort of way;
With eyes that speak of wonders on the other side of Day.
She dances in the shadows where others fear to tread;
But though her touch may kill you, it's her love that you should dread."
I'm not positive, but are you limiting your model to a standard medieval society? I haven't participated in an epic-level D&D game thus-far, but of those I've read about, you tend to expand beyond the base society at those levels.
In the economic model I'd like, the sort of crazy epic stuff that happens in high-level D&D doesn't really happen... the closest thing to what I'm envisioning, in terms of D&D, I guess, would be E6.
Quote:
A noble or even a king may not be able to spend 3 million gold on a magic sword...but perhaps a Hound Archon could purchase one from the City of Brass, etc. etc.
Just to let you know, my mind said "ARGH!" as soon as I read that.
No, I haven't considered extraplanar things so far as my thoughts on in-game economics, and I have little to no interest in going there. While your example might bring some amount of validity to 4e economics (presuming that groups always follow the heroic-paragon-epic thing of going to increasingly distant planes, which may or may not be the case), it's not something I'm about to consider.
__________________ While I play D&D, it is not my game of choice, regardless of edition.
"You're insane AND Jurassic, GW." - garyh
"The reverse side also has a reverse side." - Japanese proverb
----- Steamworks: A guide for introducing technology to a fantasy setting. (d20) Journey: The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath your feet... (Work in progress)
Well, if you only go to the power level of E6, you only get to +2 swords or so, which are 8,000 gp. That seems relatively reasonable.
of course, that also means you only have two types of magic bonuses +1 or +2. But that might be enough anyway.
If you remove the pluses entirely and it's more a suite of options (Flaming to deal fire damage, Throwing to be able to throw the weapon and have it return to you, perhaps), it should be even less of a balance problem anyway. In any situation where you don't need fire damage or throw the weapon, a regular, non-magical sword is perfectly equivalent.
---
Regarding the Gauntlet: I don't like the fixed strength score entirely. I wouldn't want any character to "dump" his strength because he has the gauntlet.
What I prefer is a mix of enhancement and max score. So, Gauntlets of Ogre Power grant you a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, but no higher than 18. Higher concordance could increase the bonus and the maximum. (+4/20, +6/22). So if your class uses strength as a primary ability score, the best results you get with the gauntlet is when you have a score of 16, not 8.
If with the bonus the strength score would go beyond the limit, add additional properties or powers, so even someone that already has "Ogre Strength" benefits from it, but he doesn't "break" the math, but still gets options.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
Well, if you only go to the power level of E6, you only get to +2 swords or so, which are 8,000 gp. That seems relatively reasonable.
Dude, I didn't really mean E6 directly, I was trying to say that that'd be the best comparison... my lines of thinking about game design and such have long since left anywhere that D&D cares to tread. It was an attempt to provide an example with which most folks 'round here would be familiar, not an exact replica of how I envision things.
To be completely honest, in the game system I'm working on, we've barely touched on magic items... we barely have basic item construction and costs of such figured out, and we're a year and a half into development. I have an idea in my head of how I'd like things to work out, but things like costs and such? Not even close yet.
Quote:
of course, that also means you only have two types of magic bonuses +1 or +2. But that might be enough anyway.
My problem isn't with the bonuses themselves, it's with the mentality it helps create. "This sword is +1, that one is +2, I'd be dumb to not take the better one."
I don't want character-significant items to be dropped in favor of random loot dropped by random critters in the world. To use 3.5 terms, you shouldn't ditch the masterwork longsword your father made for you for the +1 longsword that random orc you just slew had - I mean, you might, but the system math shouldn't force that decision on you. It shouldn't be the only and obvious choice.
Quote:
If you remove the pluses entirely and it's more a suite of options (Flaming to deal fire damage, Throwing to be able to throw the weapon and have it return to you, perhaps), it should be even less of a balance problem anyway. In any situation where you don't need fire damage or throw the weapon, a regular, non-magical sword is perfectly equivalent.
That is the hope.
__________________ While I play D&D, it is not my game of choice, regardless of edition.
"You're insane AND Jurassic, GW." - garyh
"The reverse side also has a reverse side." - Japanese proverb
----- Steamworks: A guide for introducing technology to a fantasy setting. (d20) Journey: The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath your feet... (Work in progress)
Dude, I didn't really mean E6 directly, I was trying to say that that'd be the best comparison... my lines of thinking about game design and such have long since left anywhere that D&D cares to tread. It was an attempt to provide an example with which most folks 'round here would be familiar, not an exact replica of how I envision things.
I know that it wouldn't be "E6", but if that is the difference between power levels in the game, I think that would be reflected in the level of power differences between the items. The highest item is no more "spectacular" than a +2 sword in raw power. Which points to the idea that maybe it shouldn't be at all about any pluses.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
I don't think you know what hyperbole means, because there are indeed weapons in the PH that cost 3 million gp. I know I'm poking at your favorite game and all, but at least make sense when you try to defend it.
I know quite well what a hyperbole is, and I am also quite aware of the prices in my favorite game. The original hyperbole is still there. Just because a common laborer can never afford a +6 sword, it doesn't make it a bad and broken system.
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
I know quite well what a hyperbole is, and I am also quite aware of the prices in my favorite game. The original hyperbole is still there. Just because a common laborer can never afford a +6 sword, it doesn't make it a bad and broken system.
It's a broken system for an economy not because a laborer could not afford a magic sword, but because the value of any given item is based on the available resources of a handful of individuals.
As a general rule, people are lemnings - if they read on the interweb that X class is broken, they will believe it, even if there has never been an issue before.
When I say that the internet has ruined D&D, I am saying that I think it did a lot more bad than good, at least for many people. Luckily for me, it has never been an issue for our group, since most of my players never visit D&D boards.
Conversely, if there are groups that continue to believe that splatbooks such as ToB and Incarnum are overpowered, then at least there is the internet to turn to to dispel such untruths.
In the end, I feel that all the internet really did was to allow people to better make informed and enlightened decisions about what or how they want to play. If not for forums like gleemax, I would likely never have discovered the effectiveness of battlefield control, the inefficiencies of attempting to heal during combat, the crappiness of counterspelling or the wonders of martial adepts.
I still shudder when I think of all the times I quaffed healing potions during combat while being threatened.
Just because a common laborer can never afford a +6 sword, it doesn't make it a bad and broken system.
The problem I have with the crazy high prices of stuff in DnD is the disconnect I feel between my PC spending hundreds of thousands of gp on magic items (or at least walking around with gear "worth" that much), while his family / home village etc are basically poverty stricken dirt farmers. If my PC is good, or even just loves / likes his family, I find it very hard to justify the situation in game.
When just one of your 5 or more magic items is worth more gold than your entire family is likely to ever earn in their entire collective lifetimes, I have a hard time imagining why my PC doesn't sell it and buy his family a much better standard of living.
Inflation? So to prevent the economy from collapsing from the sudden influx of gold, you have to spend it on magic items instead of donating it towards altrusitc purposes.
And of course, the wizard who receives the payment would know better than to spend it...
The problem I have with the crazy high prices of stuff in DnD is the disconnect I feel between my PC spending hundreds of thousands of gp on magic items (or at least walking around with gear "worth" that much), while his family / home village etc are basically poverty stricken dirt farmers. If my PC is good, or even just loves / likes his family, I find it very hard to justify the situation in game.
When just one of your 5 or more magic items is worth more gold than your entire family is likely to ever earn in their entire collective lifetimes, I have a hard time imagining why my PC doesn't sell it and buy his family a much better standard of living.
Assuming the character gets along well with his family, instead of upgrading his boots of coolness to boots of awesomeness he gives them 20k gold (or whatever). It isn't likely to impact his effectiveness noticeably (if at all) and his family can now afford to live like royalty.
It's not exactly as though a character has to divest himself of all his wealth for those he loves. It isn't hard to balance acquiring more mystic bling with supporting your dirt-farming relatives when, even at first level, you can easily acquire more gold than they earn in a month. After all, that bling can help you acquire even more wealth for your family in the long run (and besides, you earned it ).
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