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Well it's not just "We're in the middle of playing, having fun". It's before the game's in swing. One of the players was flipping through the magical items, complaining because "Gauntlets of Ogre Power only work once, to do damage? That's so weak. That's not what they're supposed to DO!"
I love 4e, but I agree with the complainer that the gauntlets of Ogre Power are indeed nothing of the sort. I don't understand why they didn't bring in Gauntlets of Ogre Power as a paragon level magical item that caps your strength at 20 (so if you have a strength of 21 you are already super-humanly strong, so it doesn't do anything for you). I would think such a niche for items would be necessary in 4e, given the problems that certain races have with certain class builds (such as a gnome barbarian) , multi-class characters trying to use secondary stats for attack powers, and certain classes which have attack powers in two different stats (such as cleric and paladin). All of these characters would benefit from a boost up to optimization, and I don't really see anything game-breaking about it. Unlike 2e's 18(00) strength, you can achieve 20 strength quite easily in 4e, so unlike in 2e you can be a top fighter without this magical item. Ability score bonuses have by in large been written out of the game, so you don't really have stacking issues like you did in 3e, and you don't have to worry about the multiclasser stealing all the spotlight, because all he is doing is substituting one attack power for another. I'm sure someone will let me know if I am missing something.
Regardless, I have also been relatively cool to magical item design in 4e, though it has been improving by leaps and bounds since PHB1. My prefered play style would be to put a magical item as a centerpiece to an adventure, so the each character in the party would only pick up 4-5 magical items over the course of their career. So I generally dislike a lot of the daily items, particularly those that sound like they should give some sort of attribute to the player. If they are winged boots they should allow you to fly, not fly once per day. I would rather these items were in the paragon or epic tier rather than dissappoint based on their name.
On the other hand, some magical items convert quite nicely for having daily powers, such as the luckblade, or the new tomes which contain one or two daily spells that a wizard can burn off his daily spells for. There also seems to be more encounter and at-will magical items coming out to give me the "magical" magic items that I want.
I'm wondering if anyone has any other magical item updates that have dissappointed left them disappointed in 4e (or 3e, since Gauntlets of Ogre Power sucked in that edition too).
Bah, that player is complaining just because he wants a Strength-buffing item. Stat bonus items aren't any more "flavorful" than the "1/day, do something cool", and are possibly a lot less so. The 4e gauntlets also give a boost to Str and Athletics, so a good roleplayer has some room there as well.
If a character in a comic or movie had "Gauntlets of Ogre Power", they'd work like 4e, not 3.5 -- every so often, that character would use a "signature move" that indicated their incredible strength....much like a daily power...
If a character in a comic or movie had "Gauntlets of Ogre Power", they'd work like 4e, not 3.5 -- every so often, that character would use a "signature move" that indicated their incredible strength....much like a daily power...
Of that, I have many doubts. There are characters in comics who have strength-boosting equipment - powered suits in particular - that allow them to exert their strength in fights and feats all day long, not just with signature moves or daily powers.
The 4e version of Gauntlets of Ogre Power are pretty lame. 1e's may have been too good (same with girdles of giant strength), but in a system with 4e's hit point inflation, doing +5 damage as a daily doesn't cut much mustard as a worthwhile magic item.
__________________ Bill D
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Magic items are one of the more disappointing aspects of 4E for me, too. I don't understand this drive to make everything work the same way, and
there's something wrong when I look at one of the top-end items and think I'd rather have a low-end item.
To take an example: the "Staff of Power" lets you retain a spell that crits once per day. Sometimes two or three sessions go by without my character scoring a crit, so who cares? A level 3 "Staff of the War Mage" (increase the size
of a blast or burst spell by 1) is infinitely more useful.
Another one: the "Ring of Invisibility" lets me become invisible for... one round. Once per day. That's useful in tactical combat, but a big yawner story-wise.
I could go on... but in their effort to make magic items not matter too much, it feels to me like WotC made items not matter at all.
Stat items in 3.5 ed is one of those third ed problems that I dont think was really a problem. The problem was that ability buff spells were such low levels and gave a pretty noteworthy bonus. The items themselves only required a fairly conservative approach from the DMs to stop PCs getting items with too high a bonus.
However, I think most 4th ed magic items are pretty good. That said Fuindordm's observations especially in regards to the ring of invisibility are on the money.
Its quite easy. The DM simply gives items the powers he/she wants them to have and places them wherever desired. Let the items in the books stand as they are. They work ok for "dime store" items that you can buy as gear. Real magic items that do really impressive things can go back to being distributed by the DM like they should be.
For me, it's adding items that have cool non-combat effects. For instance, you could have a ring that turns you invisible, but it fades before you attack -- so no combat advantage. A revised gauntlets of ogre power might not help in combat, but allow you to lift vast weights when you draw on their power. That sort of thing.
I really like quirky, odd objects. Designing them is one of the fun parts of being a DM.
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Of that, I have many doubts. There are characters in comics who have strength-boosting equipment - powered suits in particular - that allow them to exert their strength in fights and feats all day long, not just with signature moves or daily powers.
The 4e version of Gauntlets of Ogre Power are pretty lame. 1e's may have been too good (same with girdles of giant strength), but in a system with 4e's hit point inflation, doing +5 damage as a daily doesn't cut much mustard as a worthwhile magic item.
Characters that have strength-boosting equipment permantly have them... permanently. They don't find them in piles of treasure.
As long as D&D uses the idea of finding lots of magic items over the course of their career, such a "defining" ability just doesn't make sense.
You won't see Batman dropping his utility belt and replacing it with a girdle of giant strength to throw people around with it. You won't see Ironman giving up his suite for another one he found on a dead super-villain.
What you might see is either of them modifying their equipment. But that's not the D&D model.
I think it might be a good idea to have a system for that, too, though. Adventurers Vault III? PHB 3? Unearthed Arcana 4E?
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For me, it's adding items that have cool non-combat effects. For instance, you could have a ring that turns you invisible, but it fades before you attack -- so no combat advantage. A revised gauntlets of ogre power might not help in combat, but allow you to lift vast weights when you draw on their power. That sort of thing.
I really like quirky, odd objects. Designing them is one of the fun parts of being a DM.
That's a good idea. It might not even be wrong to keep the daily ability, but the quirky one is important.
On a totally different note: Since when is your avatar animated? (Why do I notice it just now?)
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Stat items in 3.5 ed is one of those third ed problems that I dont think was really a problem. The problem was that ability buff spells were such low levels and gave a pretty noteworthy bonus. The items themselves only required a fairly conservative approach from the DMs to stop PCs getting items with too high a bonus.
I think the real issue was that everybody wanted the big 6, and players would only consider acquiring other magic gear as an afterthought after the basic stat boosters had been settled. It made them somewhat boring and predictable, every PC is going to eventually want (and ultimately acquire) a cloak of resistance, ring of protection, amulet of NA, +x shield (animated and/or made of mithral as necessary), and stat-boosters corresponding with their key stats, regardless of what their build comprises.
The only exception to this I saw was a player who played a barb that dumped AC, and focused on effects that punished the enemies for attacking him.
Quote:
Stat bonus items aren't any more "flavorful" than the "1/day, do something cool", and are possibly a lot less so. The 4e gauntlets also give a boost to Str and Athletics, so a good roleplayer has some room there as well.
Why do I need them to be flavourful?
Quote:
You won't see Batman dropping his utility belt and replacing it with a girdle of giant strength to throw people around with it. You won't see Ironman giving up his suite for another one he found on a dead super-villain.
One issue might be that they never really found equipment worthy of replacing their existing gear with. Batman did eventually soup up his batsuit with all sorts of fancy abilities (in Batman Beyond), and if he found a belt of strength, he would likely find some way of combining it with his utility belt (something like the new pricing rules in MIC). In one episode, he also had this suit of armour that did the fighting for him. So he really isn't above this.
Likewise, I think that if IronMan encountered a superior suit of armour, he would not hesitate to incorporate its design into his existing armour somehow. Power is power, regardless of where it comes from (so long as it does not violate your own personal code/ethos), and you are routinely engaged in life-and-death struggles with supervillians. So it makes little sense to forgo such power simply to "look cool", because "being cool" doesn't save you from an enemy's attack. Cold hard stats do that.
If a character in a comic or movie had "Gauntlets of Ogre Power", they'd work like 4e, not 3.5 -- every so often, that character would use a "signature move" that indicated their incredible strength....much like a daily power...
Really? Gully from Battlechasers begs to differ. Gloves on, super strong.
When something has a limitation in those venues the normal practice is to really talk up the limitation, if something can only be done once a day the creators will make sure you know it so that it'll build tension.
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I think the GoOP should have gotten the rules for the Iron Armbands. That's a lot more in keeping with what people expect. Perhaps add a daily power that adds to an Athletics check.
I like the concept that magic items are quite limited. I have a PC right now that doesn't care a lot if he gets magic items - he has other priorities but that doesn't destroy his effectiveness as an adventurer.
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Taking the Ring of Invisibility as an example, I'll say I'm SO happy WotC went this way. Magic like that devaules the skills of characters who specailize in Stealth. For too long utility magic has marginalized character skills. You want to sneak in somewhere...hire a sneak!
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Taking the Ring of Invisibility as an example, I'll say I'm SO happy WotC went this way. Magic like that devaules the skills of characters who specailize in Stealth. For too long utility magic has marginalized character skills. You want to sneak in somewhere...hire a sneak!
Have you seen cloak of invisibility then?
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I don't mind that magic items got nerfed in 4e but I think far too many items have really crappy dailies. Almost always I'm looking for items with a decent property not a once per day little firecracker.
Now there are a few items in their that are worth just a daily, but that's the exception not the rule.
Personally I am glad magical items got the short end of the stick.
For me the only magical items that are truly fun are the non-combat related ones. Immovable Rods, Decanters of Endless Water, etc. Those do things players can't, and their use is mainly to facilitate creativity. Or things like slippers of spider climbing or gloves of storing.
What sort of bling that gives me +X isn't really important to me, and I didn't like how characters were defined/differentiated only by their equipment. The lionshare of abilities, now, are generated from the PCs classes, not the baubles they find.
I've also disliked, even with 4e, you still wind up with a closet's worth of magical items. Rarely have I seen in fantasy fiction where a character had more than two magical items.
But then, I've always felt that a character should only have 1-3 magical items, which function like a swiss army knife of thematic effects.
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