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Why doesn't 4th ed have rituals for making "traps"?
4th ed has rituals, for out of combat spell use, I like that.
it has things like the "Alarm" spell, but updated.
So why not have rituals for making all those magic traps we see being used in adventures, hm? "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander", or heroes vs villains
Rituals cost money, so that's a balance, but PCs should be able to make traps to "pull" enemies into, or to guard their own camp sites, castles, etc.
Maybe I've missed such, if they exist? (beyond the obvious Alarm style ones in PHB etc)
I've got a good bunch I can think of from both Players and DM's ideas of sneaky fun
Snare (lvl 4) and Wyvern Watch (lvl 6) are in the PHB2. They are identical in that they immobilize (save ends) once triggered, except the latter has a larger area and targets will instead of reflex.
But I do agree that more traps would be cool. I think a neat controller class could be made from that, inspired partially by Storm Pillar (a wizard at-will from Arcane Power that damages only if you walk up to it) and some of the gizmos we've seen in the artificer playtest a while back. Who knows, maybe Eberron will have some rules on that.
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Because abilities that add allies to the battle mat (whether summoned animals, hired hands, or conjured traps as in your suggestion) are next to impossible to balance.
That is why all (or almost all) such abilities result in worthless allies that cannot act on their own, do not do significant damage, cannot take significant damage, or cannot disable enemies in any significant way.
Take the existing traps-as-rituals as examples. They merely immobilize intruders, which is only useful if you initiate combat straight away.
What you'd want (if you aren't aware of the 4E design philosophy) is traps hurting, disabling and killing foes on their own. That is, real traps.
But I'm fairly certain we won't ever get those in 4E.
Even if you add a rule saying nobody get any XP from a monster attacked by your ritual-trap you can still abuse them (mainly by having your traps to deal with any adds, leaving you free to attack the BBEG yourself)
So why not have rituals for making all those magic traps we see being used in adventures, hm? "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander", or heroes vs villains
That's not how the game works at all though. PCs are very different from NPCs.
As an aside, don't traps only work because the party is the attacker? How do you "set a trap" if you're the one busting into the place?
Depends. Just a slight bit of planning and voila.
Something as simple as "I dump oil in front of the place where the reinforcements are going to come out. You throw the torch when they get close."
You have room A and room B. PCs have killed everything in room A. PCs set traps, send one PC into room B, and have him flee towards room A. Monsters follow PC, run into traps, as the PCs unload on them.
Something as simple as "I dump oil in front of the place where the reinforcements are going to come out. You throw the torch when they get close."
You have room A and room B. PCs have killed everything in room A. PCs set traps, send one PC into room B, and have him flee towards room A. Monsters follow PC, run into traps, as the PCs unload on them.
That I understand.
What the OP was talking about I assumed was those large mechanical traps like "crushing walls" and "drop floors". I mean, the example you gave certainly doesn't require a ritual...
I imagine that the OP also means it in terms of "Alarm". Alarm is, after all, a protection spell when you are going to rest. So maybe the OP means something like "I want to set up a trap so that our enemy is slowed down/hurt/captured while we rest".
That's not how the game works at all though. PCs are very different from NPCs.
Is there any actual statement from the designers about this? It seems very common to me for people to post something in the forum asking about some feature that they would like to see in 4E to be told something like "that's not how you play DnD anymore" by someone who otherwise doesn't actually support it with a statement from anything official. I never actually see this substantiated - maybe I need to subscribe to some website or something. How do we know that traps and summoned monsters (the kinds of rituals alluded to in the Monster Manual) aren't intended for some future design?
Because abilities that add allies to the battle mat (whether summoned animals, hired hands, or conjured traps as in your suggestion) are next to impossible to balance.
I think they are only *harder* to balance. If it's next to impossible, IMO this is because 4E has done virtually nothing to educate DMs on how to run any sort of game other than one based on the lowest common denominator. I think this is about how much DMs expect to be able to micro-manage the resource use and actions of their players. Where do you draw the line? Are you going to stop people's PCs from moving a rock because it throws off some terrain calculation for an encounter? Some magical force prevents a PC from digging a hole in the ground? My hope is that trap creation and summoned monsters and so on will be addressed in later supplement when the designers have time to work out reasonable parameters for how they should work.
I imagine that the OP also means it in terms of "Alarm". Alarm is, after all, a protection spell when you are going to rest. So maybe the OP means something like "I want to set up a trap so that our enemy is slowed down/hurt/captured while we rest".
As mentioned, the PHB2 has Wyvern Watch and Snare that immobilize. I don't think the OP was referring to that, was he?
I'm talking about using Rituals to create a magical trap of whatever type
Ok, imagine this:
Arcane ritual, "Flagstone Flip" on casting, it affects a stonework floor, 1 square.
Anyone who goes over that square, triggers it, who isn't attuned/exluded from triggering it.
Attck = Int vs Reflex
1d6+int modifier damage, & knocked prone.
Lasts until triggered.
Also, it can be made permanent by use of a focus item, or the like, and resets every 10 minutes.
Now, why's that good?
a) nice defence that BOTH enemies and the party can use.
b) You can use it against enemies...cast it once or several times in an area, lure the enemy into it, etc.
c) It's logical (within D&D). If an NPC can have a trap the NPC should too.
Preparing the battleground is a good idea, as old Sun Tzu I'm sure would note
Having magical traps created by rituals solves also the "How the HELL did he have all these traps if he's a wizard, not a mechanical genius?" problems, also, you can have more than the usual "10' x 10' pit trap", or a pit trap that WON'T drop you in it by mistake!
See that's one thing I always, always have in my games, unless the NPC is a lunatic: he must have a method of avoiding the trap!
who the hell wants to go through a room chocked full of death traps that some gnome with a maniacal bent, has made, eh?
Would YOU trust it? Hell no!! Odds are too high it'd trigger by accident and you'd become a shiskebab with a steel-bladed hedgehog rammed up umentionable places ! .
That's why you'd either have to use magical traps, or "left/right choice" design (by that I mean, say having 2 corridors parallel, one full of traps, other safe, intruders have to make a choice, but you know which is completely safe)
I like making traps that make SENSE, ya know?
Who the hell would put a poison gas trap in their wife's jewel box, eh?! That's just asking for divorce, lol
Alarm traps, ones that knock folk out, paralyze them (Wyvern Watch), trip them, and so on are usually much better where there's risk of setting it off accidentally.
Additionally, a book full of magicial trap rituals = great treasure horde item!!
You can also imagine a hunt/chase, where the hunted takes time to "cast" some traps to slow down or ambush the pursuers.
You lose time, but it maybe worth it, and have a breather while you do so.
I imagine you could balance rituals for creating magical traps by referring to the rules for 1-shot alchemical items. I don't see a lot of difference between paying 20 gold for a dose of alchemist's fire that does 1d6 fire damage in a burst 1 and paying 20 gold in components for a magic trap that does 1d6 fire damage in a burst 1.
I imagine you could balance rituals for creating magical traps by referring to the rules for 1-shot alchemical items. I don't see a lot of difference between paying 20 gold for a dose of alchemist's fire that does 1d6 fire damage in a burst 1 and paying 20 gold in components for a magic trap that does 1d6 fire damage in a burst 1.
Exactly!
you could have the ritual increasing in power, but also in PRICE, similar to the alchemical items, to keep it balanced and challenging.
Is there any actual statement from the designers about this?
My point is that NPCs and PCs are now very different. Just look at the rules for which they are created. What one groups gets to do does not mean the other group also can do nor should it. I've seen no evidence in the books that would make one think otherwise.
I don't think rituals for magic traps would harm things. (So long as the rituals were balanced.)
It would be akin to those new orb magic items that are supposed to be in AV 2 that move al combatants into a predetermined battlefield.
Traps aren't inherently "against" the PCs. Most of the traps / hazzards seem like they're relatively neutral, and can be used by either side to their benefit. It's just that most of the traps are DM placed, and therefore more then likely the monsters/npcs have control over them from the start.
A trap ritual would just give the PCs a way to make one area a little more in their favor. Nothing, however, forces the monsters to meet the PCs in that area. If the PCs are smart enough/good enough to get the monsters to do so, then so be it. They deserve the added advantage.
I imagine you could balance rituals for creating magical traps by referring to the rules for 1-shot alchemical items.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribble
It would be akin to those new orb magic items that are supposed to be in AV 2 that move al combatants into a predetermined battlefield.
While basing rituals on the effects of alchemical items seems like a good and sound idea; for the love of god, don't pretend that those Sequestered Orbs are anything close to balanced.
While basing rituals on the effects of alchemical items seems like a good and sound idea; for the love of god, don't pretend that those Sequestered Orbs are anything close to balanced.
I haven't actually used one in play yet. Do they really mess things up?
Really I just meant that it would allow crafty PCs a little more control over the battlefield. Not that they would = the same thing.
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