General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
So 4e is my fave rules system, but in the same way OotS can lampoon 3.x, I think it's important to point out some... well, weird outcomes for the rules of 4e that aren't making sense to me.
THREAD RULES (not conflicting mod rules, where applicable, obviously, but I want the thread off to a good start): post specific inconsistencies. I like 4e, if you want to bash it go elsewhere (so pulling the "be nice" card). Debate of the points brought up please. Funny where possible.
1) Dwarves are better druids and clerics than they are fighters or artificers. In Norse myth we see them as brilliant inventors; in Tolkein we see fighters. Every book about them talks about how they craft items and fight with big axes.
But stat-wise in 4e they're better as tree-hugging druids than they are axe-weilding hackmasters. I think the hope was to keep them as fighter-clerics, with the traditional dwarven Con bonus, but the effect of a high Str for fighters...
2) Genasi Sorcerers?: same issue but slightly different: a race that's imbued with the elements and chaos has a high Str and Int, to be great swordmages. However, sorcerers in PH2 (especially wild mages) have the chaotic energy of the elemental chaos in their blood and powering their spells. Do Genasi have bonuses to Cha and Dex? No. Despite their character description stating that they have city states that rise and fall, and that they're passionate and loners, they have a high Int bonus rather than Cha (so... they think real hard?)
3) Halfling/Gnome Staff Wizards/Druids don't exist. Small characters cannot use two handed weapons, only versatile weapons. A staff is a two-handed weapon.
4) The fluff about Tieflings is all about being infernal. Their heritage is related to devils, they get a bonus for fire based powers. They are made out to be natural infernal warlocks. What is the primary stat of the Infernal Warlock? Con. Tieflings' stat boosts? Int and Cha.
Strength bonus isn't everything. Dwarves make really great fighters, hitting two important substats and extremely good racials for the position. If you allow the stuff in MP then they're downright brokenly good. I wouldn't say they're any better at cleric or druid than fighter.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
3) Halfling/Gnome Staff Wizards/Druids don't exist. Small characters cannot use two handed weapons, only versatile weapons. A staff is a two-handed weapon.
And a one handed implement.
Though I was expecting AP to introduce a short staff of some sort, disappointed in that regard.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
Strength bonus isn't everything. Dwarves make really great fighters, hitting two important substats and extremely good racials for the position. If you allow the stuff in MP then they're downright brokenly good. I wouldn't say they're any better at cleric or druid than fighter.
Primary stat boosts.
Dragon 373 shows wotc's opinion of the best party builds by race and class. For Dwarves: optimal (druid, invoker, shaman), advantaged (avenger, cleric, warlock). Fighter is Standard, along with Bard and Wizard.
I'm not saying they suck, but compared to minotaurs, genasi, half-orcs, goliaths, dragonborn, humans and warforged... well, they don't stand up to the competition the same way they do as Invokers, Druids and Shaman.
Dwarves make great axe-wielding fighters. Axe-based powers usually get a bonus based on Con, and Wis is the key stat for Combat Superiority. The dwarf's minor action second wind makes for a particularly tough fighter too.
Dragon 373 shows wotc's opinion of the best party builds by race and class. For Dwarves: optimal (druid, invoker, shaman), advantaged (avenger, cleric, warlock). Fighter is Standard, along with Bard and Wizard.
I'm not saying they suck, but compared to minotaurs, genasi, half-orcs, goliaths, dragonborn, humans and warforged... well, they don't stand up to the competition the same way they do as Invokers, Druids and Shaman.
I am of the opinion that WotC's character creation advice should always be taken with a grain of salt.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
I know I've seen threads on this exact same topic before.
If you listen to WOTC, it is all stats, stats stats. And while there is some truth to it, the whole package needs to be looked at. Dwarves are a prime example of an excellent fighter race. Yes, they have a -1 to hit and damage their whole career (THE HORROR!!!!!) but unless you are a min-maxer-to-the-max, it really does not matter at all.
Remember this advice is for new players, who just started the game and is probably useful for someone just getting into it. It you are experienced, you know better.
I am of the opinion that WotC's character creation advice should always be taken with a grain of salt.
Yep... Everything else dwarves get is wonderful for Fighters. Dwarven Weapon Training, Second Wind as a minor action, resistance to forced movement and getting knocked down... Heck, even a Wisdom bonus is a big benefit.
2) Genasi Sorcerers?: same issue but slightly different: a race that's imbued with the elements and chaos has a high Str and Int, to be great swordmages. However, sorcerers in PH2 (especially wild mages) have the chaotic energy of the elemental chaos in their blood and powering their spells. Do Genasi have bonuses to Cha and Dex? No. Despite their character description stating that they have city states that rise and fall, and that they're passionate and loners, they have a high Int bonus rather than Cha (so... they think real hard?)
I've mentioned this before, but I feel they screwed up with the Genasi, slapping Int/Str on them just to have a race to go with the new class they were rolling out in that book. I believe they would have been much more interesting if they had done different boosted attributes based subtype as they did with the shifter.
I'm not sure that 4e might not be better off if racial stat bumps were simply removed, so you don't feel like you have to play X race to be Y class.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
What's funny is when you realize you have too much time on your hands and coffee because you think up how to use any race from PHB, PHB2 or FRPG as a particular class and make it work.
I'm not sure that 4e might not be better off if racial stat bumps were simply removed, so you don't feel like you have to play X race to be Y class.
Houserules
I'm planning on instituting a house rule next game I run: you treat one of your racial stat bonuses (your choice) as free-floating, allowing you to assign it where you wish. (Humans get two free floaters). This way, there's less incentive to pick races purely for their stat boosts (something I particularly dislike).
Namely because I see racec/class combos like this thread points out (Dwarven shamans/druids) or Halfling/DRow chaos sorcerers, where their racial fluff doesn't really jive with it.
Another house rule I think I'm going to implement is the willingness to shift a class's primary stat to something else. For instance, a Swordmage's primary stat could be Charisma, instead of Intelligent. A fighter's could be Dex, instead of Str. A Rogue's could be Int, instead of Dex. Yes, I know this would open up different sorts of combinations and possible abuses, but I would keep a careful eye on it. The point is more to allow my players to alter the class/race frameworks to fit the character's stories, instead of vice versa.
Here's irony for you: Drow get nothing, stat or feat wise, to support a dual weapon ranger. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
bravo. (on second thought, does scimitar dance remind you of anybody?)
okay this little contradiction is not limited to 4e, but it does apply to 4e. dwarves are the consummate miners (arguably), therefore, as a race, they likely are quite adept with the tools of a miner: a hammer and a pick. so, what do dwarves get as a racial feat? a bonus to hammers and AXES?!? *snif snif* i smell a sacred cow.
Man, you guys are pooing all over the funny. Fewer rebuttals, more funny!
Of course dwarves make good druids. Haven't any of you folks read the "Cleric Quintet" - the seminal work on the iconic dwarven druid, Pikel Bouldershoulder?
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