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It all started when I came up with a name for a new implement: Reagents. I know, I know, there are ritual-boosting reagents in Adventurer's Vault...
So say there's this type of soldier who specializes in mixing and throwing dangerous flasks in the battlefield. He knows just how much to mix, what powders to add to delay the effect until the payload spreads, etc. With access to "reagents", he could whip up a fiery grenade, a sticky gluebomb, a nauseating fumestick, etc. Some proponents of this class specialize in dealing damage to larger areas, while others specialize in concentrating effects on smaller numbers of foes, and a third would specialize in placing "booby traps" around the battlefield (these would be the three main builds).
This "Controller" type would also be adept at applying his reagents to crossbow bolts (arrows require far too much balance to be properly imbued).
So this "Controller" class would be a mix of an archer, an artificer and a grenadier. What if he runs out of reagents? Well, what if an archer runs out of arrows? Luckily, this "Controller" (note the lack of a proper name here) can scrounge up reagents on the road, foraging for natural and supernatural plants, herbs, oils, etc (replace some spent reagents after an extended rest). Some exploits might require specific items, like a torch, a sunrod or a vial of poison.
Part of the issue is that the class's power isn't "martial" as much as it is, well, "chemical." Powers like "greek fire" don't fit in very well, thematically, with powers like "cleave."
Still, yes, totally viable concept in my mind, even if it doesn't mesh up with the power sources exactly well.
DangerGirl! is playing a character who does a lot of what you describe in my PbP... but the PC is a wizard, and we've just themed most of the powers alchemically.
DangerGirl! is playing a character who does a lot of what you describe in my PbP... but the PC is a wizard, and we've just themed most of the powers alchemically.
-Hyp.
yes, the alchemical blaster sounds like a reskinned Arcanist; Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard to me. To truly be a martial controller you need to use some martial tricks and maneuvers.
I'm not saying alchemy cannot be a PART of what a martial controller does, but I don't think it should be the sum of his abilities. In fact, to me the martial controller is very much about flexibility.
Sounds viable as a class concept, but also sounds a bit too much like an Artificer or Wizard to divorce the controller away from its "magic-ness".
This is a toughie. This only examples we've gotten so far of Controllers are explicitly magical, and their incarnations from previous editions (where applicable) did pretty much the same thing they do now. Thus, there's never been a martial controller, so designing one now is pretty difficult.
My idea is the Noble. The Noble would represent the archetype of the a seasoned campaigner that directs others to carry out his or her strategies. I know this sounds much like the Warlord, but the build would be totally different.
Whereas a warlord leads the party by increasing attack and damage, healing, and giving saving throws, a noble has a small complement (4, I think) of minion soldiers that he or she orders around using powers. the minions could engage multiple targets and inflict status affects (partially surrounding an enemy to immobilize/slow, multiple strikes to daze/stun, etc.) They could even aid the Noble in directly assaulting foes
It's only a rough idea and it has problems, but I'd be interested to hear what people thought of it.
__________________ Some easy tips for speeding up 4E combat:
1) All monsters have 1/2 max HP and deal double damage on attacks, except minions.
2) Subtract 2 from each defense of all monsters and increase all damage die sizes by one. If the die is already a d12, simply add +2 to their damage.
If a ranger or a rogue can use a trick shot to hit someone from a distance and impose a condition on them or force them to move, the martial controller should be able to as well.
I am all for putting poisons/toxins on a weapon for martial classes, as that is something I could easily see someone doing. And easily hand waved as it would take skill in order to handle such things in the heat of battle.
But this made me realize something: One of the problems facing the creation of the martial controller is that people can't seem to think past martial classes using weapons.
If a warlord can inspire courage with words, then a martial controller can use similar words to inspire fear.
I wonder what kind of class would use scare tactics, poison, and underhanded tricks against their enemies?
__________________ If "A" is broken, that isn't a valid reason for "B" to be so, even if they vary in degree.
Tactician style Gamer, or so I have been told.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."-Albert Einstein
Sounds viable as a class concept, but also sounds a bit too much like an Artificer or Wizard to divorce the controller away from its "magic-ness".
This is a toughie. This only examples we've gotten so far of Controllers are explicitly magical, and their incarnations from previous editions (where applicable) did pretty much the same thing they do now. Thus, there's never been a martial controller, so designing one now is pretty difficult.
My idea is the Noble. The Noble would represent the archetype of the a seasoned campaigner that directs others to carry out his or her strategies. I know this sounds much like the Warlord, but the build would be totally different.
Whereas a warlord leads the party by increasing attack and damage, healing, and giving saving throws, a noble has a small complement (4, I think) of minion soldiers that he or she orders around using powers. the minions could engage multiple targets and inflict status affects (partially surrounding an enemy to immobilize/slow, multiple strikes to daze/stun, etc.) They could even aid the Noble in directly assaulting foes
It's only a rough idea and it has problems, but I'd be interested to hear what people thought of it.
I tend to think that would indeed be more fitting for a "martial" character. But it seems to add yet another "abstraction" layer to the rules.
You could also have powers that say stuff like:
"Through your tactical mastery, you lure the enemies into a trap", so you might be able to slide everyone within a 2 sq burst and have Minions swarm out to attack them.
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I think we could use a non-Str, non-Dex martial class. The only other physical stat left would be Constitution. Could we work out a controlling type (or 3, to account for other builds) to that relies on Constitution, with two other mental stats as secondary abilities?
My idea is the Noble. The Noble would represent the archetype of the a seasoned campaigner that directs others to carry out his or her strategies. I know this sounds much like the Warlord, but the build would be totally different.
The idea of a noble, and every incarnation I've seen of it in the past, reminds me of the leader role. The warlord takes some inspiration from the noble. Likewise, you can have people of other classes who are noble in nature (i.e. noble wizard), so it seems to me that the existing background is the best fit for a noble.
I think there are two possibilities for a martial controller:
1. Cavalier. Ride a horse into battle, you're going to take command of a battlefield.
2. Xena. With the way she spun around poles and took out half a dozen guys, that just seems like a controller to me.
Otherwise, you might be getting into the territory of gunpowder, which goes against fantasy archetypes for the most part. To each their own, though.
I think a lot of martial controller ideas, including some of those in this thread, suffer too much from attempting to fill in a gap on a grid. Come up with a good idea in terms of thematics, and then if it fills the gap, great. Don't take every mechanical option that fits into the gap and then jam it into one class.
If what you end up designing turns out to be more of a, I dunno, striker with some control elements, or whatever, then great. At least you designed a coherent, interesting class. Don't mangle that idea until its a pure controller.
I think a lot of martial controller ideas, including some of those in this thread, suffer too much from attempting to fill in a gap on a grid. Come up with a good idea in terms of thematics, and then if it fills the gap, great. Don't take every mechanical option that fits into the gap and then jam it into one class.
If what you end up designing turns out to be more of a, I dunno, striker with some control elements, or whatever, then great. At least you designed a coherent, interesting class. Don't mangle that idea until its a pure controller.
I honestly think the ranger could have been an excellent martial controller if they didn't try to shoehorn it into a striker.
Every time I think of the concept of a martial controller and how it would work, I think of Jackie Chan. He doesn't so much attack his enemies as he prevents them from using their abilities while using impromptu weapons to manipulate the form of the battlefield.
Exactly what I was going to suggest, then I got down to your post and saw you'd already thought of it Klaus.
A character who could perhaps sneak onto an encounter map and set some traps. Every trap you set takes a certain amount of time and the more time spent, the higher the possibility of detection. Tripwire could be one of the at-wills. How about a mechanized crossbow that auto-fires once every round (yes I am thinking Aliens: Special Edition here). One of those rope snares that grabs you by the ankle and hoists you up in the air, Bear-traps (nasty!). Rambo (First Blood) style impaling traps, Spring traps that send you into the air, Traps that can collapse a wall or tree to fall the way you want them to.
At higher levels they could have magic items that create makeshift traps on the fly (portable holes as pits, carpet of trapping and so forth).
I also like the idea of tying this into grenadier type sub options (for when you get discovered and have to make a hasty exit as well as during the fight), with caltrops, smoke bombs, poison gas clouds (sleepy gas or damaging gas), flasks of greek fire or acid, bolas, nets, harpoons, whips, gold coins (to distract a crowd?), whatever the fantasy equivalent of a flash/bang grenade is (?), oil - to make a floor slippery and/or flammable, glue, hives (summons bee swarm or ant swarm), honey (attracts swarms to certain targets).
You wouldn't even have to go that far (although it would help to get a few utility/daily powers like this). Rangers, as they stand right now, have a multitude of "Trick Shots" designed to hamper enemies, more than a few multi-attacks, and even the potential to get their own "minion" to act like a walking obstruction.
Personally, I blame Drizzt for WotC making them into strikers.
Last edited by Leatherhead; 28th May 2009 at 05:16 PM..
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