General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I can't tell you how many times I've brought up Jans Torsen, the fallen Jedi who saved a galaxy, or the adventures of Tykfal and Banarak in the Wildlands... But I've probably never once mentioned anything about a little wildelf campaign that ended in a TPK after two sessions against some basic orcs.. Nothing special, just bad rolls.
Players will talk at ends about their awesome games, but rarely mentioned the failed campaings that died out after a session or two.
__________________ "..Death greets me warm; Now I will just say goodbye.."
My first experience, we were using 1e AD&D rules for Keep on the Borderlands, and had no trouble surviving.
For harsher systems like B/X, you need to stack the odds. I played Labyrinth Lord for a few sessions online recently, straight 3d6 & hp by the book; if anything it's even harsher than B/X because you only start with studded leather, not plate. The things I did to stack the odds and successfully not die:
1. War dogs. Buy trained war dogs. They fight for you. They're much tougher than 1st level PCs.
2. Use missile weapons in support of your war dogs.
3. Let the other PCs go first...
Other good tactics include using retainers & hirelings to shield your precious PC, and having a Magic-User with Sleep - go in the dungeon; Sleep the first lot of enemies, kill & loot, return to town, rinse & repeat.
Quite possible, they probably lived with the adage of "Run Away To Fight Another Day".
Right. We were very careful and cautious adventurers. I guess I lost about half my PC's in AD&D, with an average level at death of about 4th level.
One thing that helped is that for the first adventure, there was definitely a town to retreat to and heal up in.
I find "Temple of Elemental Evil", the 3.5e computer game, pretty darn realistic to my experiences with it in AD&D. As in, when I played it, the frog fight was hard, so I healed up and went back for the next fight -- both in AD&D back in the 1980s and in the game in 2005 or whatever. When my wife tried it, she got a TPK. Why? Because she continued on after the frogs, without resting up.
The OP is entirely correct IMO, you cannot play BECMI type DnD with out continual PC/party kills. If you house rule or really fudge the dice, maybe, but otherwise you are stuffed.
We had a party of every 'class' from BECMI and the highest HP of any PC was 4 (and everyone else had 3 or less) we literally could not fight. So we ran from every encounter but we still all died!
The DM even made me roll for my Magic User spell..... tensers floating disk and a dagger... oh the mighty Raistlin Majere!
The LL game I played in recently, my PCs were a Dwarf with 4 hp, no stat bonuses, and a Cleric with 4hp, WIS 14 so he got a 5% XP bonus but nothing else. There were 5 other adventurers in the group, most of whom died because they weren't smart like my guys. My Cleric bought 2 War Dogs who he sic'd on all foes (though 1 ran away from a failed morale check). My dwarf bought a crossbow and heroically provided support fire; until later on he was able to get splint mail and a decent AC, at which point I risked melee a couple of times.
The GM didn't go easy on us either, one fight was with 2 troglodytes - that's 6 d4 attacks a round. Another was with a bunch of skeletons, who I failed to turn.
Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.
That's what you get for not listening at the door.
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We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.
That's what you get for not using your 10 foot pole.
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We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.
Hmm... since treasure is the single greatest way to gain XP, surprise of surprises it's trapped. Smash the chest with a warhammer next time instead of opening it by the bloody handles. You smash the potions inside, but get the treasure.
Is the party just the PCs or do they hire a torchbearer with more GP than he makes in a year? Maybe a mercenary or two promised a half share they will never live to receive. Maybe a spear carrier here and there. I doubt [m]any parties would take this to the Zapp Brannigan level of sending wave after wave of NPCs at the monsters until they reached their stomach limit. But if they did, do tell.
In previous editions, it seemed common enough that the players brought hirelings, pack animals, torch bearers and other types of extras with them. Some might not go into “the dungeon”, but having NPCs with had some uses. Hackmaster, in a bit of gallows humor even expects the players to have these red shirts with so that when a deadly monster shows up, the players can see they are in over their heads by how fast the NPCs get cleaved trough.
So true. In the B/X campaign I'm running the two melee characters are several levels behind the rest of the team because they kept having to be replaced regularly during the first four levels of the party's existence. Finally around level 4/5, the non-melee types took up frontline positions for a few sessions to allow the melee folks to level up.
Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.
OK. First, my party would be listening at the door. If we heard them, we'd try to go in guns blazing and hope for surprise or at least initiative. If we failed, we retreat to a corner and make them fight around it, or slam the door and spike it closed. (Of course, we use the same tactics in 3.5e as in AD&D on this stuff.)
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Originally Posted by Bullgrit
We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.
The monk or thief was going first, and using 10' pole, everywhere. Slow, but effective. The MU is NEVER, EVER, in front or in back. The approved marching order is: point-man, killer meatshield, secondary meatshield, MU, cleric, tertiary meatshield. Protect the MU . . . if you can get an MU who survives, the whole party is rocking. (Again, we go similar marching orders in 3.5e, but we have dispensed with the 10' pole -- why pole when you can just roll?)
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Originally Posted by Bullgrit
We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.
Everyone stands outside the room, while the thief smashes the chest with an axe. If there's a poison gas trap this time, oh well, get a new thief. (Or, in 3.5e, have another PC start taking Rogue levels.)
BTW, I've always had all PC's start at 1st level, or take over an existing NPC. We're almost always had more characters than players in a party, so that a player with a dead PC can take over an NPC who's already a party member, and so that's there's enough characters. More often than note, the DM has also run a PC . . . a normal PC who can (and often will) buy the farm, not the infamous "DMPC of uberpower" that people hear complain about, but I've never actually seen.
And the thing about starting two parties and combined the survivors to get something viable, plus having a large party of about 8 PC's so you can lose a few . . . that's how we survived the G123/Q1 series!
Of my two characters who survived, one was mine from the start, the other was an NPC I took over . . . two other characters (1 mine from the start, 1 NPC takeover) bought the farm. So, I dunno 25-50% survival rate, depending on how you look at it. Seems fine to me!
My recollection is that survival wasn't too much of an issue - may be I was a soft DM However I remember UK2 - Danger at Dunwater having several TPKs just enroute to the lizardman lair!
__________________ We must not remind them that giants walk the earth.
I hear/read this idea a lot when talking about old school combats, but at 1st level, it's not really possible.
Our party enters the room. Three goblins throw javelins. One hits my fighter and does 4 points of damage. My PC dies. That's it.
We walk down the hall. Pit trap drops us 10'. My magic-user takes 3 damage. My PC dies. That's it.
We find a treasure chest. If there's a trap, my thief has a 15% chance to find it. Open chest, fail the "DC 17" poison save. My PC dies. That's it.
Bullgrit
If that's how you played, there's no wonder you died.
Why just walk in a room full of goblins? They have to leave sometime, ambush them when they leave. Sneak by them. Be creative.
Probe with a 10 foot pole to avoid the pit traps.
Turn the chest away from you, and open it, or better yet, tie a rope to it and open it from 20 feet away. If it has a padlock that may be trapped, saw through the hasp or hinges, not the lock, there are many, many ways to open a chest besides merely picking the lock and opening it. If you charge madly into a dungeon, solving every problem with an attack roll, yeah, you're probably gonna die.
For me, it depends on the game. Usually (but not always), with D&D, I take the approach of "PCs that survive are special." A 1st level PC might be special, with a fantastic story and legendary exploits in his future...or his story might be to die from a giant spider bite twenty minutes into his first foray in the dungeon. (My D&D games are kind of like George R.R. Martin novels, in that respect -- characters might die, but the tale goes on...)
No Kidding! One of my favorite deaths was in 2E, I rolled up a replacement dwarven cleric for a previous character that died, I rolled several real good attributes for him, I remember he had max CON, he had a really high AC, I expected to play this guy for a long time. He died in the first encounter, ripped apart by velociraptors.
My other favorite was actually in a higher level game, and we had the un errata'd reincarnation spell going on in 2E. Every single time that PC ran into a Green Dragon I failed the save and died. Every time, which was 3 times over the time I played that PC. Plus he died several more times versus poisons. All this and he was a mage thief, if anyone should have made thsoe saves, it was him, and I failed EVERY single time I had to save versus the Green Dragon Breath Weapon, and every single time it was save or die poisons. So he got reincarnated a total of 8 times, with no level loss, since we didn't have the "corrected" version of the spell. Plus it was lots of fun adjusting to being a kobold, ogre, even spent time as a thieving bear.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
* Never, ever, touch anything. Have someone touch it first.
* Never, ever, enter anywhere. Have someone enter first.
* Never, ever, fight anyone. Have someone fight them firs... instead
Our first outing was Keep on the Borderlands. Me as DM. TPK in the first encounter.
Over the next year, between alternating DMs in a mixture of homebrew and modules, every player lost at least one character... most more. Yes some were lost to poor play or risky decisions. Many were lost just due to the odds. If you fight, eventually you will be hit. Since 1st level hit points usually ended up being less than the maximum damage that monsters could deal, there was character death.
I remember my first favorite character survived an attack from a wolf only because the wolf/DM rolled 1s on a pair of 4 siders for damage. My elf had 3 hp. He died several evenings later in the adventure when he fell into a trap with a bunch of spiders. None of the others jumped in to help him fight them... mostly due to the fact that it was high risk of death to be there. So they were 'smart' and stood back with missle weapons. Which did kill all the spiders - slowly enough for them to thoroughly annihilate the elf.
Over time we became better players, better DMs and instituted house rules. I find it hard to believe others didn't have the same experience out of the box. Of course YMMV, and some gamers could have spent time analyzing the odds and realized earlier what would happen. We instead opted to roll the dice... and die.
__________________ I am Gnome by many Gnames.
"I always keep a supply of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy." WC Fields http://gnotions.blogspot.com/
When I suggested that 3e was easier to survive than older editions, I was told that I misremembered.
Likewise with 4e.
For the record, I think that the OP is correct. Earlier D&D was harder to succeed in. Low-level bodies piled up. Success wasn't guaranteed. That was part of the game.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
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Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
Bullgrit
Now, now, don't take it to heart. Everybody is a badass in D&D. Everybody is a badass over the internet. Compound the two and there's a lot of badasses out there telling you how much badder they are than you.
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Originally Posted by Betote
Basic low-level D&D survival tips:
* Never, ever, touch anything. Have someone touch it first.
* Never, ever, enter anywhere. Have someone enter first.
* Never, ever, fight anyone. Have someone fight them firs... instead
This is good advice for anyone, but especially true for magic-users. I loved-- LOVED-- playing a low-level wizard. Because their survival tips really just basically dove-tailed what any intelligent fighter should have done as well... but you never got called on it.
NOT. YOUR. JOB.
And before you know it, you're the most powerful character in the party.
Everybody is a badass in D&D. Everybody is a badass over the internet. Compound the two and there's a lot of badasses out there telling you how much badder they are than you.
Yeah, that's why I added the "Or something else" to my post.
They're all wiser, smarter, faster, luckier, and probably better looking too.
Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
Bullgrit
Believe me, I had my share of deaths. That's how we learned we WEREN'T badasses. Trial and error. After Knuckles the fifth died charging in, we learned to be a bit more strategic, and yes, paranoid. When you enter the lair of creatures who rape cattle and flay old women for entertainment, you had damn well be paranoid, because everything IS out to get you. Almost everything, anyway.
My Cleric bought 2 War Dogs who he sic'd on all foes (though 1 ran away from a failed morale check). My dwarf bought a crossbow and heroically provided support fire; until later on he was able to get splint mail and a decent AC, at which point I risked melee a couple of times.
However I remember UK2 - Danger at Dunwater having several TPKs just enroute to the lizardman lair!
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