General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
1.) I allowed alternate char-gen (4d6 as soon as 2e), and was pretty liberal about re-rolls. Most the PCs in my game had good stats (a few were weaker, and "unfairly ubers" took a lot of grief).
2.) I allowed max hp at 1st level. Most Pcs could re-roll 1s or 2s on HD rolls.
3.) I allowed Max Gold at 1st level. (Most warriors could afford chain armor)
4.) I didn't use large hordes of monsters (typically 4-6 in a decent encounter) or a lot of random encounters (a lot. I did use them.)
5.) I gave out XP for quest completion, "role-playing" a situation, and acting in role (clerics evangelizing, wizards learning new stuff, etc)
6.) I used a lot of additional rules (kits, etc)
7.) I wasn't shy about "good" treasure (bracers of armor, +1 gear, elf-cloaks, rings of protection, scrolls and wands, etc)
8.) When all else fails, I'd "roll" low on the dice. (typically on damage rolls)
Sure, I saw deaths. Even good stats (which raised things like thief %s and cleric bonus spells) and optional rules didn't stop deaths. But my group was very RP/story driven, and the idea of having "Bob VII the fighter" being the guy who survived to 3rd level didn't appeal to us.
To this day, I'm not a giant fan of the "disposable hero" syndrome. It feels more "gamist" than any "daily martial power" or "Your 5th level, you can now fight gnolls" encounter.
What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?
Yes, I still have the very first character I made for First Edition - Malcolm. He survived until level nine at which point we left for college and stopped playing. I do not think that my Dungeon Master was soft with us - he let the dice fall where they may. I do think, though, that our idea of what was fun and interesting may not be typical of the average gaming group.
Our very first "adventure" involved a knightly tournament in which my character served as a squire to another knight. He was forced to compete when his master disappeared. He won a small amount of gold (which equaled experience in First Edition ) and went on a quest to find his master.
In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon; fought one dragon, zero goblins, orcs, et cetera; acquired one magic item; and became a baron. Is this typical? Probably not. But it is how we played and, thus, how my character survived.
Our very first "adventure" involved a knightly tournament in which my character served as a squire to another knight. In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon.
Pfft. I had a character that was WAY wussier than that.
4 or 5 characters go into the dungeon or bandit area, fight one very small group of orcs or goblins and then retreat. Not because the wizard is out of spells, but because
1) All spell casters have cast their spells
2) The Ranger is down to 2 hit points
3) The fighter is out
4) The thief...well it does not really matter the condition of the thief
You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...
Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon1
OK. First, my party would be listening at the door. If we heard them, we'd try to go in guns blazing and hope for surprise or at least initiative. If we failed, we retreat to a corner and make them fight around it, or slam the door and spike it closed. (Of course, we use the same tactics in 3.5e as in AD&D on this stuff.)
Well, assuming we're talking pre-3e rolls, most PCs could only hear noise on a 1 in 6 chance (that's 15%?) and the thief had an 18-20%.
PCs: We listen at the door.
DM rolls: You hear nothing.
PCs: Damn. Lets leave for the day and try again tomorrow.
Talk about your 15-min workdays!
Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon1
The monk or thief was going first, and using 10' pole, everywhere. Slow, but effective. The MU is NEVER, EVER, in front or in back. The approved marching order is: point-man, killer meatshield, secondary meatshield, MU, cleric, tertiary meatshield. Protect the MU . . . if you can get an MU who survives, the whole party is rocking. (Again, we go similar marching orders in 3.5e, but we have dispensed with the 10' pole -- why pole when you can just roll?)
Still, it doesn't stop the missed traps, or the ones that require more than the few pounds of pressure a pole creates. (Poles are not an exact science).
Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon1
Everyone stands outside the room, while the thief smashes the chest with an axe. If there's a poison gas trap this time, oh well, get a new thief. (Or, in 3.5e, have another PC start taking Rogue levels.)
Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf Ratbane
This is good advice for anyone, but especially true for magic-users. I loved-- LOVED-- playing a low-level wizard. Because their survival tips really just basically dove-tailed what any intelligent fighter should have done as well... but you never got called on it.
And before you know it, you're the most powerful character in the party.
You know, I don't lament the days of "the magic-user and his disposable entourage" being the typical D&D party.
Pfft. I had a character that was WAY wussier than that.
Wussy? Perhaps in the way that Galahad and Percival are wussy compared to Conan. Which is more entertaining? That is matter of personal taste. I prefer the former.
Learn or die. Have fun learning, and have fun dying.
I went from Basic D&D to Expert, to AD&D, then onwards. The groups I played with houseruled the heck out of the game. Everyone in the area figured out pretty early on that rolling a bunch of average stats was no fun, so point systems, 4d6 + reroll 1's + take highest 3 + assign as you like, and many other variants became the norm. We were teenage geeks and nerds. We wanted to play Conan-, Gandalf-, Chu'Chulain-, Fafhrd-, Grey Mouser-types. Not Wingnut the wussy fighter. As one DM put it: You can keep on rolling masses of 3d6, writing down the stats, and having the character suicide until you get some fun stats... or you can use this point-buy system I've been thinking about.
I figure I had somewhere between 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 of my characters die before 5th level.
Mostly, we learned not to do suicidally stupid things (i.e., cause and effect). We watched how others gamed and adapted their tricks and tactics. We sent out sneaky thieves to scout ahead for pit traps that would gack the MU. We guarded our rears. We ran away A LOT!! We laughed when the 14th level MU thought we were his entourage, and let a bunch of demons get in to melee range with him for a round. No more put-downs after that resurrection. The whole group cheered when my cleric, Tain, was knighted and became known as Sir Tain the Faithfully Sure. Except the DM - he was banging his head on the table because he suddenly realized I'd spent the last year of real time setting up that pun. One of my first characters, Douglas (yeah, guess where I stole the name from), was a thief and survived to legendary status - eventually becoming the Guildmaster of Thieves in Greyhawk City, faking his own death to retire, then dual-classing to a couple of other classes (long story) and becoming a walking illustration of 1E dual-classing rules follies. That was before he became a demigod vampire. Sort of. He certainly made use of the hear noise percentages at every opportunity, and saved many fellow adventurers from unnecessary damage. Yeah, sure, sometimes he didn't make the roll. But the sure way to fail is to not try... or make too much noise griping about failed attempts. Heck, there was that one time he failed to hear the ogre charging the door in Keep on the Borderlands! The MU offered to help, since the door was obviously untrapped (the thief was listening at it and nothing bad happened). The MU almost bought it then and there when the ogre came crashing through the door and tromped the thief and MU beneath it. Together, we almost made a squished multi-classed human MU/Thief. The fighter's player laughed so hard he sprayed pizza on the playroom wall. We spent most of the night trying to clean it off before my parents found out.
Looking back on it, yeah, I ran into some lousy DMs and lousy players. But they were few and far between. I tend to remember the high points more than the low ones, because there were a LOT of high points. I didn't stick with groups or individuals that I didn't get along with. I also developed ways to weed out people I knew I wouldn't get along with from groups I DMed for. And I would quietly leave groups who had players (or DMs) that I wasn't a good match with.
We survived by making houserules so the game was more fun, learning basic tactics and strategy, and reminding ourselves that even utter dimwit characters (Int or Wis 3) either learn from experience or die. A wise gamer I met pointed out to a young and too-by-the-book young DM (yours truly) that when the PCs run out of hit points, you can't torture them any more. So don't make them run out of hit points too soon. Pace yourself. It's not meant to be a horror house for the DM's entertainment. But if the hit points don't drop, the players will lose interest.
That's how our characters survived beyond 1st level: We learned, worked with the DM, and ran away a lot.
In four years of playing I entered a grand total of one dungeon; fought one dragon, zero goblins, orcs, et cetera; acquired one magic item; and became a baron. Is this typical? Probably not. But it is how we played and, thus, how my character survived.
That's truly amazing. So D&D encourages players never to go down dungeons. I do feel that's where Tomb of Horrors-style dungeons + gamism can lead you - players win the game by never going down dungeons, or at least never really interacting with them, which is basically the same thing. Tomb of Horrors was first completed by a party that used orc slaves to trigger all the traps.
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
That's truly amazing. So D&D encourages players never to go down dungeons. I do feel that's where Tomb of Horrors-style dungeons + gamism can lead you - players win the game by never going down dungeons, or at least never really interacting with them, which is basically the same thing. Tomb of Horrors was first completed by a party that used orc slaves to trigger all the traps.
I would not say that. I think in my case my group emphasized a more political, more intrigue-based game; almost to the point where combat was unnecessary. (Since gold gave experience in First Edition there was never a lack of "encounters" to pursue.) The fact that we used the First Edition rules to facilitate the story we wished to tell in no way suggests those rules encourage our particular style of play. It only allows that style as an option. Tomb of Horrors being the preeminent adventure of that type.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator
"My 8th level cleric stands atop the Pyramid of Death!"
PS
This.
My first decade of gaming was in BECMI (we went straight from BECMI to 3E) and we saw PC deaths regularly and TPK's were not an odd occurance. You get around it with better tactics and smart play and we made a few rules tweaks like max HP on first level and deaths door, but ATEOTD mortality is just part of the system - and often a fun part! Funnily enough, even though we have matured as a gaming group that element of our games often remains 20 years on. We've come to call the style of play "hardball". As a GM if you try to hard out an easy break the players resist it - they want to earn their PC's stripes the old, bloody way. It means you find ways of getting around combat, but once blades are drawn expect [PC] blood to flow.
For the record, I think that the OP is correct. Earlier D&D was harder to succeed in. Low-level bodies piled up. Success wasn't guaranteed. That was part of the game.
Part of the fun, indeed. For the people I game with, it was also true in 3.5e. The first dungeon in Cauldron ate what adds up to two parties for us. After the TPK, we gave up.
Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
AD&D was ADVANCED D&D, after all, not for the hobbyist gamer.
Seriously, I was TAUGHT the game by somebody who had played before. So I never had to pick up the books and guess what to do. I also read the books religiously and memorized just about all Gary's adventuring advice. When I said "read religiously", I mean this in the context of going to a Catholic school where we memorized a lot of stuff. I was well-aware of living to fight another day . . . and perhaps just more paranoid/cautious than most.
My DM had to arrest my PC's sometimes to get them to go into a dungeon at all! That stuff is dangerous!
You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...
My favs were fighters, paladins, and clerics. Clerics had the best survivability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
PCs: We listen at the door.
DM rolls: You hear nothing.
PCs: Damn. Lets leave for the day and try again tomorrow.
More like:
PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above. Anything unusual? Is there a lock?
DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual. There doesn't appear to be a lock.
PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
DM: Yes, a little bit.
PC Thief: I take off my helmet, press my ear to the door, and listen. What do I hear?
DM rolls: Nothing.
PC Thief: I step back and whisper to the party: "Seems like no traps or locks, but there's light beyond."
PC Fighter: I'll open it. I draw my sword.
etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Still, it doesn't stop the missed traps, or the ones that require more than the few pounds of pressure a pole creates. (Poles are not an exact science).
Tapping and listening for hollow spaces, not hoping to trigger a trap. The big pits are where the monk in the lead shines, with their falling ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!
Honestly, thief was my least favorite class to play, and I had at least a 50% death rate with them. But we usually treated it as a dungeon exploration technician, not a thief/rogue/swashbuckler, but a combat engineer/EOD expert. Some folks like that role in D&D -- and I have total respect for it in real life.
Learn or die. Have fun learning, and have fun dying.
Or just keep on having fun dying. I've been doing that for about 27 years now...
I went from Basic D&D to Expert, to AD&D, then onwards. The groups I played with houseruled the heck out of the game. Everyone in the area figured out pretty early on that rolling a bunch of average stats was no fun, so point systems, 4d6 + reroll 1's + take highest 3 + assign as you like, and many other variants became the norm.
[...]
We survived by making houserules so the game was more fun, learning basic tactics and strategy, and reminding ourselves that even utter dimwit characters (Int or Wis 3) either learn from experience or die.[/quote]Utter dimwit players occasionally learn, too...but not always.
Quote:
A wise gamer I met pointed out to a young and too-by-the-book young DM (yours truly) that when the PCs run out of hit points, you can't torture them any more. So don't make them run out of hit points too soon. Pace yourself. It's not meant to be a horror house for the DM's entertainment. But if the hit points don't drop, the players will lose interest.
True enough; and good advice.
What I find is that no matter how many characters die, as long as there's one survivor that gets back to town the party (and thus, game) goes on. And it never fails there's always one player - and not always the same one - who keeps some sort of escape strategy on hand at all times even at the lowest of character levels, in part for just this reason. Maybe this is why in 25 years of Viking-hat 1e DMing I have never been able to kill off an entire party, despite some very close shaves and many situations where things were such that they probably all deserved to die. (yet a friend started running a 3e game last summer and went through 2 entire parties in a month!)
And, it doesn't take long for parties to build up enough resources to start bringing people back to life, at which point you're set.
As for how to survive: learn the roll-up tables. Use repeatedly. Eventually, one or two of your PCs will last long enough to build up some levels and wealth; and away you go.
Lan-"rookie of the year in 1984 and still going"-efan
You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...
Hmmm...the two most successful old-school characters I ever had were a Fighter (Lanefan by name, oddly enough ) and a gonzo Dwarf Cleric who acted like a Fighter.
I've never run a pure Thief long-term; the most successful ones I've seen other people run were played more like light stealthy Fighters, that would sneak in for a backstrike but have enough starch and ability to then stand in for the rest of the battle.
Quote:
Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!
A lot depends here on what the DM and the rest of the players will let you get away with in terms of solo scouting (and pilfering) forays; as that's where Thieves really shine. If the DM/players won't stand for solo scouts, the Thief is somewhat hamstrung.
Quote:
You know, I don't lament the days of "the magic-user and his disposable entourage" being the typical D&D party.
True. "The disposable magic-user and his ever-wealthier entourage" is, however, a party structure I've seen evolve on more than one occasion.
Lan-"I own a wizardslayer longsword and know how to use it"-efan
Interesting how some here were paranoid, expert dungeoneers even in their first experiences with low-level, old-school D&D. Impressive. Or something else.
Bullgrit
Right... either you're fallible or they're liars. Hmm. Don't be hatin' just 'cause you can't hack it.
Seriously, though, you should listen to some of the advice in this thread. And here's one that I cannot emphasize enough: flaming oil. It's worth its weight in gold.
My Empire of the Petal Throne (1975) group only lost 1 character in the underworld. The party is now mostly level 4 (one level 3 who joined late... I start everybody off at 1). They leaned heavily on the following tactics:
1. Flaming oil.
2. Hirelings... crunch all you want, they'll hire more.
3. Fleeing stuff that looked / sounded / smelled too scary.
4. Offering parley to intelligent encounters.
5. Used up magic items without reservation.
6. Just plain good at solving puzzles & riddles and avoiding traps.
That's another one you should use: parley. Unless your DM is a hoser who never lets the monsters even talk to you, it is extremely useful. Some monsters don't always want to fight. Sometimes they can be bribed, and some aren't even hostile at all but are in the dungeon as information sources and role playing opportunities.*
* - As one of my players observed about a strangely mutated but beautiful witch they encountered on the 4th level: never attack a pretty girl in the wilderness. If she can survive in that environment then you do not want to go there. And he was right.
__________________ "I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
I have to confess that our main experiences with BD&D (Rules Cyclopedia / Labyrinth Lord) were indeed post-3e. In fact, They've been after several 3.x TPKs in Age of Worms. So it's understandable for us to be paranoid
We also used some houserules:
* "Broken shield": If a character had a shield, he could discard it instead of suffering damage from an attack. This could be done after rolling for damage.
* Max. hps at 1st level.
* PCs are unconscious at 0 hp, dead at -10.
More like:
PC Thief: Check the door for traps, looking at the hinges, the floor below, and the ceiling above. Anything unusual? Is there a lock?
DM rolls: You don't see anything unusual. There doesn't appear to be a lock.
PC Thief: Any light coming in around the door?
DM: Yes, a little bit.
PC Thief: I take off my helmet, press my ear to the door, and listen. What do I hear?
DM rolls: Nothing.
PC Thief: I step back and whisper to the party: "Seems like no traps or locks, but there's light beyond."
PC Fighter: I'll open it. I draw my sword.
etc.
That's it? That was your door opening procedure?
No wonder all your thieves died.
Our door opening practices and procedures handbook was so long that I can't even remember all the steps in the checklist anymore. In the culture of early edition fandom, that means I am EXTREMELY MANLY.
) and went on a quest to find his master. 
Don't be hatin' just 'cause you can't hack it. 
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