General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Our door opening practices and procedures handbook was so long that I can't even remember all the steps in the checklist anymore. In the culture of early edition fandom, that means I am EXTREMELY MANLY.
That's why I've switched gears to out-mincing The Ghost. More challenging.
You say you played the likes of Galahad and Percival! Ha! I played second squire to Percival's squire. He was a wan, pasty boy, whose days were spent washing (and then lightly perfuming) the smallclothes of the first squire. He dreamed that one day he might screw up the courage to perform the song he might one day write about the exploits of the first squire of Percival.
He avoided more dungeons than your character ever even dreamed of avoiding.
War dogs. They were something like 15gp on the equipment list, and they had a better chance of survival than most 1st-level fighters. Really, well-trained animals of any kind were a low-level adventurer's best friend.
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Jeebus, but it's 30+ years ago that I first played. I don't remember a lot of dying early on, though I do remember my 1st level thief on his own encountering a 2nd level evil cleric and surviving. Mostly we survived. Ranged combat was key. We had none of this 'first level wizards are only good for one spell' malarkey. All characters had bandoleers of daggers or darts or oil to set afire. Going toe to toe was a last resort. Sure treasure chests were trapped: we opened them from afar. Or got prisoners to do it. Or broke the chest open by tossing it in a pit trap. Never stand in front of an open door. We purchased scrolls and potions galore. We used the environment. Happy days.
My early Holmes/Moldvay playing experiences were full of character death. Becoming a 2nd level character was something to be celebrated instead of expected. Our parties did not play very intelligently at first (thus the deaths) and it took some effort to become cautious enough for survival to become a regular occurance rather than the exception. We were 10 year old kids and the concept of a merciful DM didn't occur to us at first.
At some point we started declaring max HP at 1st level as a universal house rule.
Frequent deaths did have one effect on our games that has been hard to recapture. When the party DID actually make it out alive on thier own the thrill of victory was very strong.
As I remember, the frequent and hideous deaths that happened on most adventures didn't kill the fun for us. When a PC died (especially doing something stupid), we would all get a laugh out of it, roll up a quick replacement, and move on. That feel is harder to capture with modern systems where characters have to be built rather than generated and require so much time to put together. Character death has always been a part of the game but it has become more of a chore to work up a new PC these days which makes PC death a lot less fun than it used to be.
Honestly, thief was my least favorite class to play, and I had at least a 50% death rate with them. But we usually treated it as a dungeon exploration technician, not a thief/rogue/swashbuckler, but a combat engineer/EOD expert. Some folks like that role in D&D -- and I have total respect for it in real life.
We lost all our thieves. We had 4th level PCs, but no thief. Since it was impossible to make a character at higher than 1st level (how would you know how many magic items he had?!) We had to make another 1st level thief... But we didn't want to make another 1st level party, since the odds of getting a thief up to 4th level were pretty poor (see all the dead thieves...).
So we had the Darwinian Crime Spree! We made 26 1st level thieves with brilliant names like A-1, B-52, CO2, D-Day... and sent them against the Keep on the Borderlands in a massive crime wave. Each thief robbed and stole until he was caught. The last surviving thief got all the XP (remember to divide by the number of survivors!) and made it to 4th level. That's how we ended up with an awesome thief named H2O.
PS
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But wouldn't you say your character was more successful because he never went down dungeons? He could gain xp from gold but without risking his life.
It is a mistake to say that he never put his life at risk - he did. Just not in the traditional sense of going down into a dungeon and cleaning out all the monsters that inhabited it. The one dungeon my character found himself in was because he was captured. An actual dungeon!
Our inspiration for playing the game was found in movies like: Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Braveheart, First Knight, Excalibur, and The Sword in the Stone. Often our adventures were about robbing the rich to give to the poor, seeking out holy relics, organizing the people to fight against the evil baron, finding mystical allies to help our cause, etc. When combats did occur, which were about 2-4 times per character level, we tried to do so on our terms. For example, ambushes were a common tactic. Really, we just mimiced what we saw in movies.
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Originally Posted by Doug McCrae
I find the concept that the Dungeons & Dragons rpg might encourage the players to avoid dungeons like the plague both hilarious and wonderful.
I suppose from a certain point of view it is a little ironic that an optimal way to game the system, so to speak, is to completely avoid both dungeons and dragons. Our intention was never to game the system, but to mimic the movies we loved.
I did too, but, I'm not entirely sure some of the things you list here are cheating.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Ok, I'll be the pink elephant in the room.
I cheated. A lot.
1.) I allowed alternate char-gen (4d6 as soon as 2e), and was pretty liberal about re-rolls. Most the PCs in my game had good stats (a few were weaker, and "unfairly ubers" took a lot of grief).
4d6 drop the lowest was the standard rolling method in 1e D&D. Basic/Expert D&D allowed you to lower some stats in order to raise others at a cost of 2 for 1. 3d6 in order with no changes is OD&D only I believe.
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2.) I allowed max hp at 1st level. Most Pcs could re-roll 1s or 2s on HD rolls.
We did this one too. Continued doing it in 1e. Made rangers rock on toast. 16 con got you 20 hp at 1st level.
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3.) I allowed Max Gold at 1st level. (Most warriors could afford chain armor)
We didn't do this one. But, then again, Plate mail was only 60 gold, so, it wasn't like your fighter wasn't going to start with a 2 AC right off the shot.
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4.) I didn't use large hordes of monsters (typically 4-6 in a decent encounter) or a lot of random encounters (a lot. I did use them.)
Now, we did use hordes. Mostly cos we played modules.
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5.) I gave out XP for quest completion, "role-playing" a situation, and acting in role (clerics evangelizing, wizards learning new stuff, etc)
Y'know, even in 1e, we gave bonus xp to casters for casting spells. Surprised the heck out of me when our house rule became official in 2e.
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6.) I used a lot of additional rules (kits, etc)
Yup. Loved me the heck out of the Unearthed Arcana 1e. Just warmed my munchkin little cockles it did.
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7.) I wasn't shy about "good" treasure (bracers of armor, +1 gear, elf-cloaks, rings of protection, scrolls and wands, etc)
Me too. Then again, we ran modules and those things were just STACKED.
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8.) When all else fails, I'd "roll" low on the dice. (typically on damage rolls)
Sure, I saw deaths. Even good stats (which raised things like thief %s and cleric bonus spells) and optional rules didn't stop deaths. But my group was very RP/story driven, and the idea of having "Bob VII the fighter" being the guy who survived to 3rd level didn't appeal to us.
To this day, I'm not a giant fan of the "disposable hero" syndrome. It feels more "gamist" than any "daily martial power" or "Your 5th level, you can now fight gnolls" encounter.
Yup, pretty much the same here.
Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's. The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions. Gack. Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.
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You know, after reading this, I now know why the "fondly remembered" PCs are rarely clerics, thieves or fighters...
In your games maybe.
My favourite characters are a thief and a cleric. Clerics especially as the front-line warriors of their gods / churches / cults / personal craziness remain one of my favourite characters throughout all editions. The leader in our B/X campaign is a cleric (as was the leader in our last game, which was a TPK).
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Wow. No I KNOW why no one played thieves! The best role a thief could play in a group was to hang out with the wizard, shoot a shortbow, and soak up XP until he was 6th level!
Not quite, but close at times. Once the elven cloak and boots were in play, however, the thief's ability to backstab got pretty brutal. Also by level 3 they are hearing noise 50% of the time in B/X (and they hit level 3 while the elf was still level 1).
I remember doing the Caves of Chaos one room per day. Clear out one room, high-tail it back to town to heal and regain spells, and then back the next day for the next room. Otherwise we would've been toast. So many humanoids!
My very first AD&D character was a paladin - I rolled a 17 Charisma on 3d6! He was sent on a glorious mission into the sewers to kill some sewer goblins. First thing he did was fall into a pit and die. Good times!
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The combination of maximum (or even above-average) HP at 1st level with provision for being "out, but not dead" at negative points can nearly eliminate PC deaths short of coups de grace. I have found the latter provision particularly odious, though; I would rather employ some sort of saving throw if I want to make such an allowance.
Without such modifications, 1st-level characters are indeed prone to high mortality rates -- very high in combination with novice players. Of course, lack of skill can doom characters of any level!
I think the low-level game is key to initial development of essential skills, and excellent for getting back up to speed when those have gone rusty. It can also be a great change of pace after a lot of high-level play, offering distinct challenges.
Once upon a time, it was also commonly a process of real discovery by players who did not know thing one about the monsters and magic of D&D. (For that reason, it was preferable if at all possible to play for a while before "parting the veil" by reading the material a DM needed to know.) The death of a character was (for most of us, in my experience) not a big "bummer" but an addition to the thrill -- and an opportunity to roll up another, perhaps of different sort. The toss of the dice was delightful suspense, and the dungeons always held fresh mysteries in their depths. I would give the analogy of a friend's cat that fell out a window, survived without serious injury a bounce off a (parked) car ... and, as soon as it was retrieved, seemed intent on jumping the same course! Whee!
When one has "been there, done that" times enough to get jaded, one may wish to skip that phase and start at (say) 4th or 5th level. I prefer that to "jacking up" 1st-level PCs. However, I also prefer to hand-wave the competence of such characters as primarily the result of being especially gifted -- as opposed to coming up with "back stories" as copious as the tales that actual play up to that point would have produced. The biography that really matters, in my view, is what emerges in play.
Last edited by Ariosto; 28th May 2009 at 09:33 PM..
4d6 drop the lowest was the standard rolling method in 1e D&D. Basic/Expert D&D allowed you to lower some stats in order to raise others at a cost of 2 for 1. 3d6 in order with no changes is OD&D only I believe.
We didn't do this one. But, then again, Plate mail was only 60 gold, so, it wasn't like your fighter wasn't going to start with a 2 AC right off the shot.
Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's. The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions. Gack. Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.
Mind you, I played 2e after starting in the Rules Cyclopedia. Both of them list 3d6 in order as the normal method of stat gen, but both give generous alternative methods (4d6 is "Method V" in 2e). As soon as we found it, we switched to it, and most of us had "good hands" (sometimes legit, sometimes not so) so it was rare to see anyone with at least a 17 in a prime requisite.
Similarly, in 2e a fighter began with 5d4x 10 gp and plate mail was 600 gp. So chain, scale, and splint were all common starting armors after the max gold rule came. It meant most fighters could afford 1-2 good weapons (sword & a bow usually) decent armor and possibly shield, and the "standard adventurers kit" of his day.
Lastly, I know what you mean. APs have saved my group, as did adding SW Saga's Second Wind rule. Still hasn't stopped my Eberron group from suffering 7 deaths in 12 levels.
I fondly recall an adventure where the last conscious party member was the war dog. Not only did "Fluffy" dispatch the last foe standing, she heroically dragged her master to safety, Lassie style.
I assumed we were just talking about after we were all done cheating.
My characters in 5th grade *somehow* managed to elude death a billion times. By 6th grade ... not so much.
I fondly recall an adventure where the last conscious party member was the war dog. Not only did "Fluffy" dispatch the last foe standing, she heroically dragged her master to safety, Lassie style.
We had a 1st level Ranger with a war dog, and the Ranger spent 10 rounds fighting a single Orc (granted, it was the chieftan) while his war dog killed like six others...
Heck, that really hasn't changed since 1st edition. Our 3.5 Druids 'riding dog' Companions are usually the best tank in the party at 1st level!
Why just walk in a room full of goblins? They have to leave sometime, ambush them when they leave.
HA! I recall one dungeon (don't remember which) that had a 10x10 room with 30 Orcs in it (or some equally gonzo Old Skoolishness) that we sealed up for a week. When we opened it up, there they were, exactly as they'd been when we sealed the door. No latrine, no food, no air. Why were they still there? Because the GM decided that the whole thing was just so gonzo (the module said they did X when the door was open, and nothing else) that they were put into magical suspended animation whenever the door closed. We all groaned/chuckled at that, and continued onward...
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Funnily enough, when I did run 3e straight by the book, I slaughtered the PC's. The campaign averaged a PC death every three sessions. Gack. Since then, I use Action Points to mitigate 3e lethality and that's worked for us.
For most of my current 3e campaign I've been averaging 1 dead PC per 4 hour session. I started using death at negative CON + 10 to reduce fatalities; still lost 2 PCs in 1 fight to a fireballing Wizard. Funny thing is, I'm using B/X and C&C modules and monster stats to reduce the lethality!
Maybe it's because players expect to win the fights in 3e they die so much. Plus the modern modules especially can be rather linear.
I'm trying to figure out why "play it straight by the book, live or die means nothing to me" never worked for me. Two thoughts:
1) There are the rules to the game, and then there is the intent (which is certainly open to personal interpretation). To me, the intent is the fun of adventuring, and the game is more fun when the characters have a decent shot at survival; plus I want to reward reasonable risk-taking as I find "probe every bit of floor with a 10' pole" utterly boring.
2) D&D has always been my gateway at being the character in a fantasy novel. If Bilbo had been killed by those trolls near the beginning of The Hobbit, there wouldn't have been a story about him. So I think in my mind that's where the "PCs are special" mentality comes from. They are the star of the show; things don't always work for them the way they work for everyone else; and further, the stars of the show should be able to direct luck their way a bit more than normal (thus my use of action-point style rules that allow the avoidance of the worst of the random luck of the dice).
I'm trying to figure out why "play it straight by the book, live or die means nothing to me" never worked for me. Two thoughts:
1) There are the rules to the game, and then there is the intent (which is certainly open to personal interpretation). To me, the intent is the fun of adventuring, and the game is more fun when the characters have a decent shot at survival; plus I want to reward reasonable risk-taking as I find "probe every bit of floor with a 10' pole" utterly boring.
2) D&D has always been my gateway at being the character in a fantasy novel. If Bilbo had been killed by those trolls near the beginning of The Hobbit, there wouldn't have been a story about him. So I think in my mind that's where the "PCs are special" mentality comes from. They are the star of the show; things don't always work for them the way they work for everyone else; and further, the stars of the show should be able to direct luck their way a bit more than normal (thus my use of action-point style rules that allow the avoidance of the worst of the random luck of the dice).
Hey Eric, we come from the same gaming traditions. We used the rules to emulate the stories we loved, as opposed to running the rules and telling stories from the results. Both are valid, but our play style is very much the former than the latter (even today.)
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