General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
It is not the game you play - it is how you play it. Always has been that way. Always will be.
Yes and no.
If the purpose of beer is to get drunk, it doesn't matter what beer you drink as long as you're sufficiently hammered at the end of it. However, most people have specific favorite beers that suit their pallet in terms of taste, color, aroma, and smoothness. (And, of course, some don't use beer to get drunk, they prefer wine or harder stuff).
Point is, yes as long as you're having fun it doesn't matter if its OD&D, AD&D 1e, 3.5 or whatever. However, some people prefer the mix of certain brews to others; don't give me a Bud Light when I ordered a Corona.
What the PC's (and Kobolds) believe to be a misplaced trap is primarily a Kobold-Population-Control mechanism. It also has a hidden extra benefit: The average Kobold Int used to be 6...
Hahaha!! Now I see how Tucker's kobolds developed. Several generations later and you have some badass kobold commandos.
My first pc, a thief, died fighting the ogre in Keep on the Borderlands. Since the moment Pickpocket (I had just seen Oliver Twist) got squished, I've never stopped loving B/X D&D.
I've found strength in numbers to be one of the keys of survival. Getting some henchmen/hirelings/goons/Charmed bugbears to tag along always helps. Note, I don't mean redshirts. Getting your cronies killed is a good way to stop being able to find cronies. I'd rather have a 4th level henchman who's been with me for years than have to hire a newbie every time out anyway.
Buy armor. Plate mail with a club is always better than lightly armored with a ton of great weapons.
Ranged weapons.
Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes.
Talking to the beasties is always good. Try to get information from them. Try to get them on your side. Use the orcs against the goblins, etc. Charisma is not a dump stat, use those reaction charts to your advantage. If you don't have to fight the monster, don't.
Do the tasks your class was designed to do. Fighters fight. They don't poke around at ancient altars or try to open treasure chests. That's a good way to get turned into a chicken, dissolved into goo, or otherwise come to an untimely end. Same thing, but reversed for magic-users and thieves.
Always keep your eyes on the prize. The way btb xp works in O(A)D&D, hacking your way through small critters simply isn't worth it. You're looking for the big haul of treasure that will bump you up to 2nd level. Use whatever guile you have at your disposal to locate the loot, grab it, and get out as quickly as possible.
O(A)D&D isn't about being a hero, it's about becoming a hero. And you don't become a hero until 4th level. Keep your head down and eyes open until then.
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.
"Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes." is just the latest.
Although it's a good concept, death at 1st level in old school D&D can come even when Special Forces tactics are used. I mean, when one hit could kill a fighter (not even a crit, or max damage, just a normal, average hit) there was no sure-fire safe tactic. Hell, winning initiative was a 50/50 chance.
All the "listen at the door," "draw them out," "throw flaming oil," etc. advice sounds wise (and smart alec), it doesn't ensure survival.
Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.
"Avoid death" is probably too strong a term.
"Reduce the odds of death" is more what you're looking for.
When a party of 1st-levels marches into a dungeon, it's a safe bet they're not all coming out. But those that do come out have taken the first step* to a heroic future...
* - further steps not guaranteed.
Lan-"they went into the valley together, and one by one they never came out"-efan
Max HP at First Level cured the early mortality problem most of the time.
I see this said a lot, but the math doesn't bear this out.
A first level character with Plate and Shield, fighting low level monsters (need a 17 to hit - or 20% chance), who do 3.5 points of damage per hit, basically do .7 points of damage a round averaged over a long term.
A character with 5 hit points thus survives on average just over 7 combat rounds, while a maxed-out character with 8 hit points lasts just under 11 1/2 combat rounds.
In my experience, this difference has been too little to notice over the long
term. Survival at low levels, in my experience, is much more tied to whether the character can afford to purchase plate mail at the start...
A first level character with Chain and Shield, fighting the same monsters (who now hit 30% of the time and thus do 1.05 points of damage a round) only last 7.6 rounds at max hit points, or a little less than half a round longer than the 5 hp character with Plate and Shield. (The 5 hp character lasts about 4 1/2 rounds.)
It's curious that I often see people give out max hit points at first level while simultaneously making plate armor more expensive.
That's one of my few problems with the Labyrinth Lord clone of B/X. While giving clerics 1st level spells (which, assuming that spell is CLW, essentially gives one character an average of 4.5 additional hit points per session), it makes plate armor too expensive for first level characters. In the long term, that's going to make 1st level play much more deadly, even with the added cleric spell.
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
I see this said a lot, but the math doesn't bear this out.
A first level character with Plate and Shield, fighting low level monsters (need a 17 to hit - or 20% chance), who do 3.5 points of damage per hit, basically do .7 points of damage a round averaged over a long term.
A character with 5 hit points thus survives on average just over 7 combat rounds, while a maxed-out character with 8 hit points lasts just under 11 1/2 combat rounds.
In my experience, this difference has been too little to notice over the long
term. Survival at low levels, in my experience, is much more tied to whether the character can afford to purchase plate mail at the start...
A first level character with Chain and Shield, fighting the same monsters (who now hit 30% of the time and thus do 1.05 points of damage a round) only last 7.6 rounds at max hit points, or a little less than half a round longer than the 5 hp character with Plate and Shield. (The 5 hp character lasts about 4 1/2 rounds.)
It's curious that I often see people give out max hit points at first level while simultaneously making plate armor more expensive.
That's one of my few problems with the Labyrinth Lord clone of B/X. While giving clerics 1st level spells (which, assuming that spell is CLW, essentially gives one character an average of 4.5 additional hit points per session), it makes plate armor too expensive for first level characters. In the long term, that's going to make 1st level play much more deadly, even with the added cleric spell.
Looking at the mean damage is probably not all that useful here. The variance is way to big to have the law of large numbers take over.
If I have 8hp and each attack does 1d6 hp, i know that the first hit will not kill me and I can play accordingly. Once i am down to 4, I know that the next hit has 50% chance of killing me, and it is time to go home and rest. So my choices matter. If I start out with 3 hp, all I am trusting on is the luck of the die roll. I cannot adjust my strategy after the first hit, as I likely am dead.
What did Morgan do right that kept her alive? Or was it all mostly luck that made the difference for them?
It was four first or second level pcs against 12 hobgoblins. Even with a Sleep spell on deck, that's a tough fight. A pc is going to die in that fight. If the dice go poorly, all the pcs might die in that fight. What the party did wrong is that when the hobgoblins told the pcs to "go away" (the DM gave the players a chance to avoid the fight) the pcs didn't say "ok" and walk out of the room. If they later find out that what they're looking for is through that room, they can always go back. Maybe with some more muscle, better magic, or otherwise better prepared for the fight.
What purpose did that fight serve? What treasure were the hobbos guarding? What xp was to be gained that made it worth the risk of certain death for at least one pc to engage in that fight?
While the hobbos do tell the pcs where there treasure is after they surrender, the players had no way knowing they'd do that prior to getting into the fight, and the players (and we, because the narrative ends) have no way of knowing whether the hobbos told the truth, whether the treasure was substantial enough to be worth the Frederik's death, whether it's guarded beyond the poison needle trap, or whether the pcs ever actually acquire it.
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
Although it's a good concept, death at 1st level in old school D&D can come even when Special Forces tactics are used. I mean, when one hit could kill a fighter...
Of course in the real world Special Forces soldiers can each survive dozens of hits before dying...
I cannot adjust my strategy after the first hit, as I likely am dead.
Which is why a 3 hp character should do everything in his power to avoid getting into a melee. Adjust your strategy before the fight ever begins.
PC death at first level in my B/X campaigns has been about a 50/50 proposition historically. A ton of it is luck, but you can do things to sway the dice in your favor.
But the main thing to remember is that once the dice hit the table. you're basically already dead. The key is to do whatever you can to get the dice out of the DM's hand, while still moving towards the ultimate goal of getting enough gp (or whatever it is you give out xp for in your campaign) to make it to the next level.
I've said before, O(A)D&D, as written, was not about killing things and taking their stuff. It was about taking their stuff without getting killed.
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
Nope. You use reach weapons - spears or pole arms. The orcs come at you with their axes & swords; your spears have longer reach so you get to attack first and skewer them. In AD&D they'd be -2 AC and you'd do x2 damage, too.
Anyway, war dogs (AD&D guard dogs) + missile weapons. Few monsters have missile weapons. Don't go into melee.
Several folks have mentioned in this thread that PCs should use specific strategies to avoid death in old-school D&D combat at first level.
"Using choke points, doors, and other obstacles to your advantage such that you don't get swarmed under by the hordes." is just the latest.
Although it's a good concept, death at 1st level in old school D&D can come even when Special Forces tactics are used. I mean, when one hit could kill a fighter (not even a crit, or max damage, just a normal, average hit) there was no sure-fire safe tactic. Hell, winning initiative was a 50/50 chance.
All the "listen at the door," "draw them out," "throw flaming oil," etc. advice sounds wise (and smart alec), it doesn't ensure survival.
What did Morgan do right that kept her alive? Or was it all mostly luck that made the difference for them?
Bullgrit
Dungeon adventuring is a dangerous, risky undertaking. Luck has a lot more to do with survival at level 1 than just about any other time.
One thing the party could have done after seeing the parley fail and being outnumbered would have been to feign intimidation and carefully withdraw when the hobgoblin told them to leave. Remember that the encounter started with the group kind of being caught unaware (though not suprised in game terms) by a group that outnumbers them by a lot. The best thing to try would be a withdrawal ( which the DM gave them as an option based on the hobgoblin's dialogue). The party could explore elsewhere, note the location of the hobgoblins and return when they were more prepared.
The lethality of those early dungeons was part of the fun. It was easy to believe all the stories about previous unsuccessful adventurers after becoming one a few times. That same tired story doesn't carry the same weight in "balanced" adventures. After completing one you can't help but wonder how pathetic all those would-be heroes that came before you really were.
The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist.
Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderland, exist.
Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .
Any less logical than the well-stocked magic shops of later editions?
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
Any less logical than the well-stocked magic shops of later editions?
'Bout the same.
The magic shops are markedly less amusing, however, because they don't involve heartlessly commoditizing the underemployed into disposable, multipurpose tools.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist.
Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .
No, you buy up stuff as a part of character creation. That 3d6 roll for starting gold and the following equipment purchase is as much a part of your character as the 3d6 for his STR. If you didn't buy guard dogs in character gen, don't be surprised when the GM points out the local village has no guard dogs for sale, that your PC has no experience in use of guard dogs, and that training them would take weeks or months anyway.
The thing I find most amusing about old-school D&D survival advice is the assumption that local markets, well stocked with Greek fire, well-trained combat dogs, and a near-endless supply of unemployed, idiotic lackeys perennially at-the-ready to marched to their doom into the Caves of Chaos or the Keep on the Borderlands, exist.
Apparently most D&D-world economies produce these as a matter of logical course .
Perhaps.
Or, more likely, after the second or third request for more unemployed lackeys the townsfolk are going to ask what happened to the first lot, and then run you out of town on a rail.
We always used to have this problem when trying to find an extra Cleric for the party. They kept dying. Eventually, we ran out of towns that would even talk to us...
Nope. You use reach weapons - spears or pole arms. The orcs come at you with their axes & swords; your spears have longer reach so you get to attack first and skewer them. In AD&D they'd be -2 AC and you'd do x2 damage, too.
Anyway, war dogs (AD&D guard dogs) + missile weapons. Few monsters have missile weapons. Don't go into melee.
I am kind of amused by the constant mention of war dogs. I cannot imagine a dog that is trained well enough that it will follow a stranger into a dark alien smelling hole, attack with fiendish intelligence Undeads and Monsters and sacrifice itself for the life of the party. If I GM you would need to raise the dog yourself and pass some checks on dog training if you ever wanted to expect such behavior.
Moreover, dogs and wolves are stated up as way too powerful in all editions of D&D. If I was to pit even a Mastiff against a trained fighter in heavy armor with a decent weapon, I would expect to fighter to win 19 times out of 20.
I guess this goes to show that one groups smart strategy is another groups silly attempt at rules abuse.
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