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Over the years I’ve read several references and stories about people’s first experiences with early editions of D&D – OD&D, AD&D1, B/XD&D. The thing that surprises me with these tales is that the PCs don’t die.
My first experiences with BD&D and AD&D had PCs dying all over the place. My very first experience with the game, delving into the module In Search of the Unknown, had a character die in the very first area and encounter of the dungeon. My first DMing experiences had several PC deaths in the module Keep on the Borderland. The ogre alone easily killed half a dozen 1st-level, beginning PCs. Two PCs died in the pit trap at the beginning of the kobold cave.
It was not uncommon at all (could even be said to be very common) to have PCs with 1-4 hit points (even fighters could roll that with their 1d8 hit points) die from the first goblin or kobold hitting for 1d6 damage. In the first couple years of my playing this game, I don’t think any group completed any dungeon with no deaths at all. Hell, it might have taken 20 PCs to enter (in several 3-6-man forays) for 4 to complete a dungeon.
A couple years after we started playing D&D, my group agreed to always start new PCs at around 3rd level (5,001 xp), because lower-levels were a crap shoot to survive.
Just recently I read a tale of the adventures of a group playing their very first D&D characters in an old-school adventure with the old-school rules, and the PCs ended up gaining a couple or few levels without a single death in the party. These Players were new to the game, with 1st-level PCs, in an environment where they had no base town or backup (no henches) of any kind. Yet they made their way through encounters that were often of equal number and levels.
This kind of thing blows my mind. In my experience, old-school, 1st-level D&D was brutally random. A group of six 1st-level PCs against a group of six goblins could easily end with a couple of PC deaths, possibly even a TPK. In fact, my experiences with the game at that stage makes me think these stories I read where the novice, low-level party succeeds with their first try makes me think either the DM is going *very* easy on them, or the stories are not “accurate.”
What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?
Quite possible, they probably lived with the adage of "Run Away To Fight Another Day".
No but honestly it is quite possible to have a low mortality rate, just like you had a high one.
My first experiences were of the higher mortality rate, our 4 person group went with the theory of starting out at 1st level, but everyone had 2 or 3 characters. When we reached the leveling point for 3rd level, you only choose one of the characters, the others were turned into your 'hirelings' to later become your henchmen if you made it to Name Levels.
Also we played more often our mortality rates went down drastically as our tactics got better and more creative.
__________________ Bill
The Yeti aka Magnus the Archmage
~"Henry Bowman lives within each and everyone of us, and it's time to start acting like it. " A Story Hour set in Valus by Funeris http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97346
I'm probably a softie - I tailor adventures to suit PC abilities, and I give the low-level PCs lots and lots of ways to succeed and survive. I've played many editions of D&D and that's just how I roll.
You have it about right, Bullgrit. You can't run away to fight another day when any fight, even against the weakest foe available, has a significant chance of involving your character's death after being hit one time.
we used to say "it's not that your character hasn't died... it's just that he hasn't died yet."
We would run 3 or 4 PCs each, and expect half the party to die. Then we'd run another 1st level adventure, half of those PCs would die, and we'd bash the two groups together, go into a 2nd level adventure, and half the PCs would die.
"My 8th level cleric stands atop the Pyramid of Death!"
PS
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What was your experience with old-school low levels? Can you believe a tale of novice PCs surviving on their first adventure (without “help”)?
I find the possibility of no PC deaths with novice players and 1st level characters pretty hard to believe unless the adventure was really easy or the DM was going easy on group (which I don't think is necessarily bad, although I usually prefer a more 'let the dice fall where they may' approach). I think you're right about the deadliness of low level D&D (i.e. TSR editions). Even with very experienced players, we've had 1 PC death and a couple of "near misses" with only a handful of sessions in my Cromlech Tor game (and the record on hirelings is bad enough that the PCs have developed a reputation and are having a hard time hiring anyone).
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
I guess it was because we were in the military, plus I did not start playing with a newbie DM, he had a few years under his belt.
So we didn't start with a few HP's, my first DM is the first to teach me "max HP at first level" and why. Plus he taught me the value of using cover whenever possible, back to back fighting, using your 10 foot pole, use caltrops, let them come to you, and probably a dozen more "tricks of survival" I was taught and have forgotten.
We still had plenty of PC deaths, I just got lucky and wasn't one of them most of the time. I think I have only had PC's die 23 times or so. Most of those were in my wife's games, she had poison frikkin everywhere!
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
4 or 5 characters go into the dungeon or bandit area, fight one very small group of orcs or goblins and then retreat. Not because the wizard is out of spells, but because
1) All spell casters have cast their spells
2) The Ranger is down to 2 hit points
3) The fighter is out
4) The thief...well it does not really matter the condition of the thief
Repeat till the entire party is dead, or the DM gets so bored he gives enough XP to level the party so that he can run something a little more fun.
But maybe that is just my experiences
RK
__________________ Looking for game in Mid. Tennessee area.
1) Play a ranger with a high con. Hard to go wrong with 2d8+6 starting hp.
2) Maximize AC. An elf with 19 dex and splint mail + shield is a good start. Upgrade to banded, then field plate ASAP. Besides, those improved armors will also improve your movement rate to 9" instead of 6", which is good for rule #8.
3) Do both 1 and 2 (after UA was released).
4) Molitov cocktails are invaluable.
5) Guard dogs are invaluable.
6) Longbows are invaluable.
7) Safety in numbers. If there are eight of you, at least one of you will make that saving throw.
8) Always be ready to run away, and keep a good stockpile of caltrops to slow down your pursuers.
__________________ "This skull is wreathed in fire and holds knowledge about many things—mostly flammable things."
Some PC deaths are bound to happen at low level (And higher levels, too), but there are ways to minimize the number/frequency of such deaths.
1) Hirelings
If you only have 4 PCs, that's a dangerously small group. Hirelings (zero-level fighters) should be acquired as soon as possible. For evil or neutral groups, these may be just cannon fodder, but even for good groups, they're a good idea. More attack rolls mean more hits on the enemy.
2) War dogs
A 2+2 HD war dog is probably better than the party's fighters in both attacks and hit points. Having one along can be a big help.
3) Smart tactics
These include basics like mapping, gathering intelligence, use of missiles, forming a defensive line, planning your objectives, and running away from anything that you think is too tough.
4) The "hovering on death's door" rule
The rule that character isn't dead at zero HP was in the first edition DMG as an option. Using it reduces lethality.
5) Giving first level characters at least average HP
This is an optional rule from Unearthed Arcana. For example, using this rule a fighter with d10 hit die (average 5.5) will have at least 6 HP at first level. Some people house-ruled maximum HP at 1st level, though I think that's going too far, myself.
6) If the adventure is near (perhaps beneath) a town, fort, or other "home base", many PCs can be saved that would otherwise die. The slow poison and death's door spells can return nominally dead PCs. Of course the NPC clerics that cast such things will want something in return, but that's just a way to dispose of excess loot, or grist for more adventures.
For almost all my games had characters start with max HPs (along with other's I'm sure). Pretty much it was always a question as to who was going to be the cleric and then flesh out the rest of the party dynamic from there. I think after a couple games we used "Hovering on Death's Door" rule as well, which is the now common -10 = Death rule. This was all AD&D 2nd Ed.
Everything from house rules to toughen up low-level PCs, to adjusting published adventures to include more resources and fewer hazards, to making sure the bad guys weren't too tough, to straight up fudging rolls at the table. I know there's a "PCs aren't special" school of thought with some DMs; I go the opposite way.
I know there's a "PCs aren't special" school of thought with some DMs; I go the opposite way.
For me, it depends on the game. Usually (but not always), with D&D, I take the approach of "PCs that survive are special." A 1st level PC might be special, with a fantastic story and legendary exploits in his future...or his story might be to die from a giant spider bite twenty minutes into his first foray in the dungeon. (My D&D games are kind of like George R.R. Martin novels, in that respect -- characters might die, but the tale goes on...)
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
Its possible by RAW. If the dice are with the party and against the GM. Normally you just get used to having total strangers attaching themselves to your party, with the group who levels up being entirely different from the one that entered the dungeon in the first place! (Somewhere in one of the dungeons one of our early GM's ran is a fresco of half a dozen of my earliest characters who were killed by spider bites in the first or second encounter of an adventure. )
__________________ Scrag 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out!
The OP is entirely correct IMO, you cannot play BECMI type DnD with out continual PC/party kills. If you house rule or really fudge the dice, maybe, but otherwise you are stuffed.
We had a party of every 'class' from BECMI and the highest HP of any PC was 4 (and everyone else had 3 or less) we literally could not fight. So we ran from every encounter but we still all died!
The DM even made me roll for my Magic User spell..... tensers floating disk and a dagger... oh the mighty Raistlin Majere!
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