DM tips - what makes a good DM?

[Myth and Legend]

Hey everyone. I haven't posted outside "Talking the Talk" and "Playing the Game" but my topic has no place there, so.. hello I'm new to PnP/PbP games, the only RPGs played before being PC games (not the full RP experience by a long shot, as i learned)

So then, off i went and joined half a dozen games, and seem to be doing ok so far. And now, thoughts of me DMing my own game become more and more frequent. See, with stories and characters i have no problem - I am sure i can make this interesing. But, what do you veterans say, must one learn prior to taking on the responsibility of DM-ing? What adivce would you give? What should i avoid, what should i expect of the PCs? I am more interested in character development and role playing than hack-and-slash dungeon crawling. Thanks!

[Doug McCrae]

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

But, what do you veterans say, must one learn prior to taking on the responsibility of DM-ing?

Nothing.

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

What adivce would you give?

Communication is the most important single factor imo, particularly at the start. Explain what sort of game you plan to run, ie lots of roleplaying, not much combat. Find out what sort of game the players are looking for.

[Myth and Legend]

Well surely there will be combat and trinkets! And if the group chooses to they can fight anyone - i am not planning on restricting them. What i meant by not being a dungeon crawl is that i don't plan to take them trough weeks or months worth of combat sequences without any talking or party/npc interaction.

[Lord Pendragon]

Originally Posted by Doug McCrae

Nothing.
Communication is the most important single factor imo, particularly at the start. Explain what sort of game you plan to run, ie lots of roleplaying, not much combat. Find out what sort of game the players are looking for.

This bears repeating. Some gamers prefer a Beer and Pretzels game over in-depth storytelling. Nothing destroys a game faster than players and DM being on different pages on the subject.

Aside from that, I think the only advice I'd give is to not become too attached to any grand storylines you may come up with. Sometimes the players' imaginations take them in entirely different directions, and a good DM has to be ready to roll with it and adjust his own plots as a result.

Ask Piratecat to ask you about the March of the Modrons sometime.

[aboyd]

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

But, what do you veterans say, must one learn prior to taking on the responsibility of DM-ing?

Some bullet points:

1. Expect the unexpected. You will put a lot of time into an NPC -- maybe a villain, maybe a quest-giver, whatever -- only to see the players ignore/sidestep that NPC. Don't railroad if you can help it. Instead, simply reuse your work. Are they getting actively involved with some other NPC? Apply your work -- you spent hours statting an NPC, giving it a background and a motivation, then use it when the players want it. I was joking around with another DM last week, about a group that was quested to clear a small dungeon. The group approached the dungeon entrance, the wizard cast stone to mud and then reversed it, killing everything in the dungeon in a single round. I said how disappointed the DM of that game must have been to invest all that time, but the DM I was chatting with laughed & said, "Why? He just uses that unexplored dungeon for the next dungeon they enter." And I thought, "Duh, shoulda seen that one coming."
2. Get comfortable ad-libbing and rule-arbitrating. This sorta builds on the previous point -- the players will do stuff you didn't plan for, and it's OK to say, "Crap, you stumped me, I need 3 minutes to work up what happens." It's also OK to say, "I don't need any time to react, but what I'm about to say isn't a permanent house-rule. I'm going to make a judgment and then look it up later, and make changes for the future if I have to." I had players (at the end of a particularly uneventful game last month) ask if the local mage's guild would conjure up an illusory monster for them to fight, just for fun. One player offered to pay for the spell to be cast. Technically he didn't have enough money, but I said "to hell with it, yes, and if you manage to beat it, I'll even give XP." Several games later they want to repeat the process, but I'm very comfortable saying that was a one-off, and if they try again it will follow the rules (since I know what the books say about such things now). You have to be able to do this so that you can balance the players having fun with you own feelings about what's reasonable in your game world.
3. Get comfortable taking 1 minute to check something or read a paragraph. Get uncomforable taking 15 (or 30, or 45) minutes to look up rules, discuss something with one player, role-play a single element, etc. All the players need to be involved, and if you get comfortable having lulls in the fun, the players will get increasingly dissatisfied.
4. Remember that you're running a complicated game that has dozens of rule books, maybe hundreds or thousands if you allow in third-party splatbooks. So don't let yourself be run over by books. There is a way to know it all or most of it all -- spend years running games, never switch systems or versions, and spend lots of time here reviewing what you did. However, since most people are not that insane, you have to fall back upon your own judgment. Try to make decisions that are level-headed. If you make a house-rule on the fly and it hurts a player, think about how to help the player without undermining yourself. Last Saturday, I was running the players through the Cage of Delirium module (a haunted house) and I didn't understand how the Unhallow effect would work with an evil cleric -- it actually boosts their rebuking ability (my intention was to inhibit the turn undead ability, but that backfired, and I'm OK with that). So I accidentally gave the cleric command control of some powerful undead. I told him I needed to revisit that after I had some time with the rules. This freaked out the player, who insisted he would have played differently. I wanted to stick to my guns -- I'm not giving 4th level players uber-undead as free henchmen -- but I didn't want the player to feel that I yanked away all his combat efforts. So in the end I decided that he does have control of these undead, but I set their CR down to something appropriate for his level. I retain game-world balance, and he gets to have the flow of combat remain unaltered. Being able to see the rules as malleable helps immensely. Don't get caught painting yourself into a corner when you have control of the corners themselves.

[Myth and Legend]

Thank you all (especially aboyd for that large post). I intend to play PbP and exclusively here in enworld. In which case i can recheck and revisit rulebooks (i would play IRL if anyone even knew what DnD was where i live) but the advice stays true for PbP i reckon.

So, the party could decide to ignore obviously charismatic and important NPCs? Well then, how would you DM this situation:

A big event has happened nearby and the main NPC wants to send the group to investigate. He is way way above their level (think 4 7th level PCs, one 18th lvl NPC) and obviously a threat should they decide to attack him and loot his shiny gear. Similarly, they could refuse the job, but the town doesn't have that much else to offer apart from caravan guarding or vermin extermination (way below their level quest-wise). How could i steer them in the right direction should they prove stubborn, without throwing this NPC in their face and forcing them?

[aboyd]

OK. The powerful NPC bumps into the players in town. He says, "Heh heh, this isn't really a coincidence. I've been trying to find you. I know you're hardy adventurers, and you may be willing to handle something that I do not have the time to do myself. Here is an explanation of the problem."

Then the players are given the explanation of the problem.

That's one way I might inject the NPC into the storyline. Now your other question is essentially, "What do I do with their response?" So let's look at it.

• If they actually attack the NPC, have the NPC actually defend himself. He might just teleport away and eventually guards run the players out of town. Or he might concentrate his attack on one player, killing that player very quickly as a "message" or hint to the other players. If they get the message, then you're off & running with a Raise Dead quest -- maybe the NPC offers to Raise Dead, but only if they now agree to do this thing for him. Or maybe the NPC says, "OK, now there is one fewer of you. I still want you to do this quest. Good luck finding someone to replace the dead character." And then the player rolls up a new character and the game keeps going. Of course, it's possible for a TPK. Personally, if players in my campaign attacked a powerful quest-giver and kept attacking after seeing a PC die, I'd invoke Darwin and just allow the TPK. At that point, they could all roll up new characters, or maybe if there is a cleric in the party, he/she has a meeting with his/her god, and that god offers to send them back for Some Important Reason. That is actually quite good for the storyline, because now you've injected some Ultimate Goal into the timeline.
• If they refuse the job, shrug and let them. If they haven't heard the details of the job, then simply drop it in whenever they do start talking to a NPC. Or if they have heard the details of the job and still reject it, try one of two things. First, you could let them. They've made choices, the town has a finite number of quests/events, and they've exhausted their options. At this point, they might need to leave town and find some other place to do stuff. The campaign will become a series of random encounters for a short while as they make their way elsewhere, giving you time to plot out the next town. The second option would be to see if they are gunning to try the quest from another angle. By that I mean, if they didn't like your main quest-giver, are they feeling itchy to find the opposing NPC and side with him? Are they interested in undermining the original NPC? If so, you still get to use your materials, but now you'll have players helping the dungeon inhabitants or whatever.
• Lastly, don't forget the rule of multiple hints. It's actually not called the rule of multiple hints. It's from an article that talks about how DMs should build in multiple people/items that can lead players to a quest or to the resolution of a quest. It's redundancy to help stabilize the storyline. Did the players kill an important NPC? No problem, that NPCs wife has all the info the players need, and if she won't talk, maybe there is a diary with key info. Do this stuff so that the players can overcome "missing it" once or twice.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

A big event has happened nearby and the main NPC wants to send the group to investigate. He is way way above their level (think 4 7th level PCs, one 18th lvl NPC) and obviously a threat should they decide to attack him and loot his shiny gear. Similarly, they could refuse the job, but the town doesn't have that much else to offer apart from caravan guarding or vermin extermination (way below their level quest-wise). How could i steer them in the right direction should they prove stubborn, without throwing this NPC in their face and forcing them?

What event and what PCs do you have? It's relatively easy if it's religious related and you have a member of some religion in your PC's. If it's something that could disrupt trade, you can have something the PC's break, go to get it fixed, and then learn that it can't be fixed until something is done. If the PC's have some family member, well, they can ask. Or the PC's can get in a fight, and find themselves in jail till they fix the road!

Or whatever. But one important thing about your hook is that it doesn't have to come directly from the Main NPC. They can meet an agent of the NPC. Or they can meet what you planned to be an agent, but it turned out to be an agent of the enemy of the NPC, who is now trying to kill the PCs because obviously they're working with the NPC.

See how it can work?

[Rechan]

Try to say "Yes" when players want something. If it makes your DM senses uncomfortable, go for "Yes, and..." so that you take their idea, but weaken it or apply something else to it. If it's too outragous, try "No, but..."

When you get to a "no, but...", try to find out what the player wants with what they're asking, and try to come up with a more reasonable solution. For instance, if they want to play some exotic race from some splatbook. Do they want to play that race because the stats are cool? Because the race is cool to them, story wise? If they want the stats, but the race is too strange to fit into your game, take the stats and apply it to something else. If they want the story, but the stats are broken, take the story (let's say, insect people) and give them more mundane stats (elves or halfling stats).

Something I touched on above, but is much more universal: you can change the flavor of anything to become something totally different. The same numbers can represent anything you need to describe, as long as the numbers line up well enough. The stats for Orcs can become soldiers made of wood, the stats for a flail can be a simple length of chain, a spell can look completely different as long as it has the same mechanics, etc.

GMing involves negotiation.

The rules are a guideline. Sometimes you need to bend them or break them. Soemtimes they do not apply to your situattion.

[darjr]

Before the NPC even asks, have the PC's get some skin in the game.

Why would they want to do the investigation? Maybe the folks that needs investigating slighted the PC's or stole something from them or are threatening them. That way the high level NPC asking them to go do it is just icing on the cake.

The Chatty DM blogger just put up a post about this...

» Do You Throw Rocks in Your PC’s Puddle?

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Try to say "Yes" when players want something. If it makes your DM senses uncomfortable, go for "Yes, and..." so that you take their idea, but weaken it or apply something else to it. If it's too outragous, try "No, but..."

Right. This is the best advice you'll ever get on DMing.

It's not easy at first, but the results are wonderful. And if there's ever any sort of rules conflict, my default is "what's going to be the most fun for the players?" Mind you, that doesn't mean it necessarily gets decided in a way that is easy for the PCs, but I always default to whatever is coolest.

Regarding your NPC? Try using less powerful NPCs that the heroes could beat up if they wanted to. Make them important politically, or just nice guys, instead of physically powerful. Then always think about the consequences for what the heroes do. It's possible that an exciting story starts as soon as they ignore your planned adventure and kill the guy giving it to them.

An example: Okay, your PCs have just ganked the person giving them their mission. You're panicked and angry. What to do?

Well, you could throw guardsmen at them to try and arrest them. That doesn't usually end well. A niftier solution might to have them immediately designated heroes. He turned out to be very famous, very evil, and very wanted by the law in a nearby country. The PCs get a parade and public celebration. Then all this guy's former colleagues show up seeking retribution... and what if it wasn't really him? Why is he wanted? Are the heroes being set up, and if so, why?

Figure out what your players expect, then turn it sideways. Keep them on their toes. They'll love you for it.[/spoiler]

[Myth and Legend]

This is very helpful, thank you all. About making NPCs not as powerful, so that the group could kill them - I am not a fan of that. Just like in real life, there should always exist someone who you should not attack if you have a brain.

If the PCs can go around killing *everyone* or threatening them that's unrealistic. Every tough guy has a tougher guy he's afraid of. Sure, they can kill an important quest giver - and then, they would face some more important (and a stronger NPC). They kill him too, they gain notoriety. And then an epic level NPC comes and splatters them.

Honestly, that's the only ting i would be adamant about. I would allow any book, class, flavor, race, spell and feat, even if they are borderline broken (well no infinite actions or pun-pun), if they are fun for the players. But i would not allow them to feel like wolves among sheep - there always exists someone stronger than you that will not like it if you mess up his plans.

[Piratecat]

Sure, but they're heroes. Well, assuming they aren't evil. Heroes are, by definition, cooler than the people who surround them. Always having powerful NPCs who can push them around if necessary isn't necessary or desirable, in my opinion. For one thing, the players will start asking why the NPCs don't fix the darn problems themselves... This was the Forgotten Realms problem in 2nd edition D&D, a great campaign with what many people thought were too many powerful NPCs.

My point was also that there are lots of reasons not to attack someone, that have nothing to do with whether they're physically tougher than you are. Maybe they're popular in town. Maybe they know the local crime boss, or the mayor. Maybe they're the best cook in town, and everyone will be pretty darn mad if you hurt them. And maybe they know something you can't afford to lose.

You'll certainly want some NPCs who are more physically powerful than the PCs, of course. There's always a bigger fish. I just wouldn't necessarily closely involve them with the PCs' lives until there's a story reason to get 'em involved.

[aboyd]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

Always having powerful NPCs who can push them around if necessary isn't necessary or desirable, in my opinion. For one thing, the players will start asking why the NPCs don't fix the darn problems themselves...

That's odd. I so easily hand-waved this. I think I just said, "They're busy. They delegate." And it never came up again.

Clearly, people like your campaign, Piratecat. So it's working. I just can't quite get my head around it, as I've never had difficulty shooting off in the other direction. In fact, having many NPCs who are brutally stronger than the PCs has helped me to avoid difficulties.

Different strokes, and all that.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

This is very helpful, thank you all. About making NPCs not as powerful, so that the group could kill them - I am not a fan of that. Just like in real life, there should always exist someone who you should not attack if you have a brain.

While this is true, one thing you may not be understanding is why that's a bad solution to get into the habit of choosing.

It risks making the game unfun. Seriously, do you want your players to be bludgeoned into doing whatever your Uber-NPCs say because of their power?It'd be like making a save or die roll. Some of the worst games I've been in have had that sort of thing, and I realize now why that was unfun for me. Oh wow, something bad happened, I rolled a one. I died. How inspiring.

I never played with that guy as the GM again. Ever. I just wasn't inspired to try some more. And just a few weeks ago, I was observing a game where somebody else was GMing, and he had this NPC he was trying to overpower around one of his players. This led to an argument that the GM was breaking the rules by having somebody far too powerful, and lead to a bit of a blow-up.

Not inspiring either. He asked me what I thought about it, and I told him, I thought his mistake was getting his NPC into a fight with the PC. A much better way to handle it would have been something else, like an earthquake, being accosted by another NPC, or almost anything BUT a fight.

Yes, your concern about the PC's potentially going on a murderous rampage is a problem, it does happen, but if it does, then you may have a more fundamental problem, like a basic incompatibility between what you want and what they want. In which case, throwing bigger and meaner NPCs than they can handle at them won't work. They'll just complain that any time they want to do something "fun" you drop somebody on them like a 100-ton plot device to smash them like a bug.

There was a Knights of the Dinner Table Comic once, where BA (the DM) tried to prevent the players from going off the road by having the trees so thick and dense it was impassable. What happened? Well, the players insisted on cutting down the trees...you can imagine what a problem it was. If I'd been there to advise BA, I'd have suggested he have them run into something interesting or useful instead of trying to put up a wall. Like a bandit camp...with a map to somewhere marked with an X.

[Woas]

Say yes, or roll dice.

[Doug McCrae]

With the uber-powerful NPCs, I think it depends on what they're doing. If they are all in their secret hideouts doing secret stuff, not a problem. But if they are constantly getting in the PCs' faces saying, "Do this or I'll kill you" or, worse, acting as GMPCs, travelling with the party, defeating all the foes and solving all the mysteries, then that's a problem.

It sounds like the 18th level NPC Myth and Legend mentions is fine, as he's only giving the PCs a quest.

[Bumbles]

Yes, but he wanted ways to get them to take up the quest without throwing the NPC in their face and forcing them.

[Myth and Legend]

Yes i want to find a balance (and this is a hypothetical situation, with the 18th level NPC and all.) I always hated two dimensional villains or heroes, the former always acting like schoolyard bullies ("do this or i'll kill you" "har har give me your items/gold" or "i'll raze this village to the ground, because i'm EEEEVILLL") and the latter being Mary Sue characters that would sacrifice themselves for anything and anyone.

I would certainly *not* be trying to pick a fight with the PCs or force them to do anything - i agree with that. All that i'm saying is, if they do decide to start killing important NPCs (not necessarily *good* NPCs but even ones of an Evil alignment can be of use if they show no malicious intent towards the group) they will have to face the consequences.

Another example, the group has accepted a quest and already is on their way, traveling at night trough the city. They encounter a woman who is very charismatic and eloquent, albeit somehow emanating a dark aura and making the good characters feel uncomfortable. (DM - a Vampire with character levels and slightly buffed CHA). She offers them aid if they side with her an not the original NPC (who may or may not be evil in alignment).

So if they decide to kill her on the spot, her mate will come looking for them and demand an explanation. Mind you, he will still not be attacking on sight, but he would want their assistance as retribution. They attack again and kill him as well. This is ok, as they are presumably loyal to the first NPC.

But if they decide to later swindle both parties and/or ambush and slaughter everyone the NPCs will take action. It is quite unrealistic to assume that everyone but the PCs is a moron and can be taken advantage of and/or killed with ease. Heroes yes, but all-powerful? Certainly not.

Thank you all for these replies you have helped me a lot.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Myth and Legend

A big event has happened nearby and the main NPC wants to send the group to investigate. He is way way above their level (think 4 7th level PCs, one 18th lvl NPC) and obviously a threat should they decide to attack him and loot his shiny gear. Similarly, they could refuse the job, but the town doesn't have that much else to offer apart from caravan guarding or vermin extermination (way below their level quest-wise). How could i steer them in the right direction should they prove stubborn, without throwing this NPC in their face and forcing them?

How would I deal with it? I wouldn't. If the PCs don't want to investigate something, then they don't investigate it. Later on, as that thing they ignored develops, it may well come back to bite them on the butt. This goes especially in play-by-post, as the game goes so slowly. You don't have the problem of having a bunch of folks sitting at your dining room table with nothing to do if they don't grab your plot hook. You can have hours to come up with something else for them to do if they choose to pass on your offering.

Note that in the above scenario (as far as you've described it) the NPC seems to be there only to punt the PCs into the action. Otherwise the NPC is superfluous. So, do away with him. Instead, have the PCs witness events related to what you, the DM, have prepared. Players usually don't like being given orders, but they love to jump into the fray.

(If, for example, a Thieve's guild has stolen the Crown Jewels, you could have the local Duke call on the PCs to investigate. Or, you could have them blunder into the middle of another robbery - the thief they catch is a coward, and is willing to give them a hint that something bigger is up if the PCs let him escape with his life.)

Or, if you really must have an NPC involved, have it be one weaker than the PCs - someone seeking aid in something they cannot accomplish themselves. Allow them to choose to engage for their own reasons, rather than feel forced to do it.