Edition War Across the Net or Where Have You Been?

[Invisible Stalker]

Mention anything with more than one "edition" on the internet and the nukes are launched.

D&D, Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, comic books, etc. etc.


I have been lectured to at B&N while perusing a 4E product. I've had 3e/4e edition wars cross over with comic book arguments, i.e. ..."You like 4E, of course you like Dan Didio's vision for DC." I should try to see if I can start a D&D edition war on a golf forum I frequent, just so it isn't left out.

[tmatk]

Originally Posted by Mournblade94

...

WOTC did not help the edition wars much by stating right off the bat that 3rd edition was flawed and 4e was going to fix everything. If you were still playing 3rd you were playing the wrong game.

...

That's marketing. "Our new product is better then our old one, please buy it". When there's a new edition of Pathfinder, they'll do the same thing.

[MrGrenadine]

Originally Posted by tmatk

That's marketing. "Our new product is better then our old one, please buy it". When there's a new edition of Pathfinder, they'll do the same thing.

When improvement to a product can be quantified, the reason to stop selling a previous version, (like a detergent, for instance), is justifiable. But as we've seen in some cases (New Coke, I'm lookin' at ye!), the consumer base will reject the improvement altogether.

In this case, "improvements" to a set of game rules are extremely difficult to quantify, and are in most cases purely subjective, so the same tactic is probably going to fail.

In other words, a set of game rules isn't something that needs to be retired when a new version appears, as long as it works for the consumer. Did people stop playing 5 card draw when Texas Hold 'em was invented? Hardly.

What puzzles me is why, knowing how big a reset 4e was going to be, WotC didn't decide to be inclusive and support ALL versions.

[jdrakeh]

Originally Posted by MrGrenadine

What puzzles me is why, knowing how big a reset 4e was going to be, WotC didn't decide to be inclusive and support ALL versions.

Because they can't make money like that. Shockingly, publishing games costs money. If you have a finite amount of money for publishing and your available choices are to spread it across several product lines that currently produce diminishing returns or start a new product line (an almost guaranteed way to boost profit), which do you choose? Hint: Option one will probably bankrupt you.

[Herschel]

Originally Posted by avin

Geez, I read some of the 4vengers posts and they are as bad as 2E fanboys hating 3E when it launched.

"I AM RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG!"

When everyone who knows anything knows there are two sides to every debate: My side and the wrong one.

Yeah, it's pretty much everywhere, even on the minis sites.

[tmatk]

Originally Posted by MrGrenadine

When improvement to a product can be quantified, the reason to stop selling a previous version, (like a detergent, for instance), is justifiable. But as we've seen in some cases (New Coke, I'm lookin' at ye!), the consumer base will reject the improvement altogether.

In this case, "improvements" to a set of game rules are extremely difficult to quantify, and are in most cases purely subjective, so the same tactic is probably going to fail.

In other words, a set of game rules isn't something that needs to be retired when a new version appears, as long as it works for the consumer. Did people stop playing 5 card draw when Texas Hold 'em was invented? Hardly.

What puzzles me is why, knowing how big a reset 4e was going to be, WotC didn't decide to be inclusive and support ALL versions.

I imagine it is more cost effective to kill off the old product and start selling the new one. The idea is to get 3e players to switch to 4e, and buy an entirely new line of books. If they continued to support the old edition, it would cannibalize sales of the new one. They obviously also wanted to get away from the OGL.

[jbear]

My 2 cents for what its worth.

People here at enworld seemed to have cooled the tempers a lot from what I was perceiving some months back. What seemed like a war seems to have matured into a respectful difference of opinion.

At least that is my perception.

[Nymrohd]

This is until WotC does a new blunder whether it is an actual blunder or just a communication one. But yes EnWorld had decent enough moderation that it will take a lot of hard trolling for either side to manage to send the place to the dogs (and by then mods will start swinging the banhammer left and right so it won't happen). Loose moderation begets hostile environments. Honestly the most absurd forums I'm regularly around are the WoW forums.

[MrGrenadine]

Originally Posted by jdrakeh

Because they can't make money like that. Shockingly, publishing games costs money. If you have a finite amount of money for publishing and your available choices are to spread it across several product lines that currently produce diminishing returns or start a new product line (an almost guaranteed way to boost profit), which do you choose? Hint: Option one will probably bankrupt you.

No need to be condescending. I understand how the business works. And I disagree that there is no way to make it work. Writers and musicians can release new products over time without telling people not to purchase the back catalog. And this should be especially true for a company that made over 300 million dollars PROFIT in 2008.

Originally Posted by tmatk

I imagine it is more cost effective to kill off the old product and start selling the new one. The idea is to get 3e players to switch to 4e, and buy an entirely new line of books. If they continued to support the old edition, it would cannibalize sales of the new one. They obviously also wanted to get away from the OGL.

Getting away from the OGL is a good point, and goes hand in hand with why the new edition was such a reboot. But money from the sales of all editions goes into the same coffers, so why not divert just enough money into the pockets of a few freelance writers, who could write a Dragon article a month for each previous edition?

Might seem tough, but I don't think its impossible for a company to innovate and try to keep the largest fan base happy.

[Oni]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

I got lectured by a complete stranger at my local game store. Seriously. It was a little odd.

Should of poked him with your hook hand, that would of learned him.




Anyway, maybe there should be Edition War Correspondents

"Dirk Steakface here live at the scene of the latest battle. The flames are still lighting the pre-dawn sky. In these early morning hours we've seen the guerrilla grognards attempt to retake the main forum, however the 4tards are still heavily entrenched. The fighting has been bitter. The destruction here is beyond comprehension. We can only guess at the true cost of this conflict at the point, but all signs point to it being staggering. Still there is no end in sight. Back to you, Katy."

[Hunter In Darkness]

Originally Posted by tmatk

That's marketing. "Our new product is better then our old one, please buy it". When there's a new edition of Pathfinder, they'll do the same thing.

No thats not how wotc did it. I was told more then once my games sucked and was unfun. I was told my games were not as fun as they could be. I was told I was a bad DM if I used rule x.

I was fine with marketing. The out right bad mouthing of rule books you were still bushing out at that time was a bad call. They did more oh " oh this games sucks, arn't you glad you no longer have to play such a poorly designed game"

What they should have done was " well many people had an issue with rules x, some did not. We took a long look and decied rule x needed to go"


Wotc could have really used some PR people.

[Hunter In Darkness]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

It was worse over on the WotC boards, but eventually many of the non-4e fans just abandoned the place after the abuse they saw at some of the more extreme fanboys (the 4vengers, etc).

I'll back this up as well. I was run off after being warned 4 times over the same post while the other posters said far, far worse


But yeah the wars have touched every board I know of. They have not stopped but folks tend to stay on one side of the trench

[alleynbard]

Originally Posted by Dragonbait

4chan /tg/ still had it going on about 2 months ago, which was when I stopped going there. Since I play 4E I mostly payed attention to those threads and there was always at least 1 attempt to troll the thread (4rries, 4aggots), or the thread was a copy/paste troll thread to begin with.

As a fan of 4e and a gay man this makes me want to produce a button that proudly declares myself as a 4aggot. Just sayin'.


More on topic, I don't think there has been an RPG site/blog untouched by the war. For the most part, it doesn't matter much to me because I don't really post comments or surf the forums at these sites and blogs. I mostly go there for material or ideas.

Now that I mention it, this has impacted me a bit, since one of my fave sites was Paizo. I haven't been to Paizo in a long time because I don't feel comfortable. No one attacked me personally or anything, but I am a hothead by nature and I tend to speak before I think. Which leads to conflict. I don't feel any anger over the whole thing, just not sure I feel comfortable posting. I still buy their products and convert them though, so I guess that is the important thing.

I have been pretty good about my posting habits lately so maybe I will try to head back over and see if any threads interest me. I have plundered quite a bit of Golarion for my homebrew and it would be nice to see what others are doing with the world.

But I haven't seen the tension any place weird, like the car wash or what not. A player in my group did get criticized by the UPS man that comes to her office because she had a 4e book on her desk. I guess it became a bit of a debate.

[Leatherhead]

I saw it on the WoW forums once or twice.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by alleynbard

As a fan of 4e and a gay man this makes me want to produce a button that proudly declares myself as a 4aggot. Just sayin'.

If you make such a button, could you mail me one more? I have got a friend who should have one.

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

It was worse over on the WotC boards, but eventually many of the non-4e fans just abandoned the place after the abuse they saw at some of the more extreme fanboys (the 4vengers, etc).

That wouldn't surprise me. WotC's boards generally tend to populated with people who are playing what WotC is actively selling. So I would expect a high number of 4e fans there. And heavy 4e discussion will probably discourage use by non 4e players, since there's simply less for them to talk about.

Originally Posted by jdrakeh

Online, it's been perpetually brewing at Dragonsfoot ever since that site was founded.

Dragonsfoot? Huh? I thought they talked about nothing but AD&D, the Basic sets and the 3 white books there, and anything post-2e is essentially off-topic. Why would they have an edition war problem unless it's before vs. after 2000?

Originally Posted by Cadfan

One interesting thing I've noticed is that there are some people who post to multiple forums who specifically go to one forum to troll for an edition war, and then go to another forum to be reasonable. I've noticed at least one crossover where a forum member trolled ENWorld like a true master for months, while posting on rpgnet as a totally reasonable human being.

I'd probably do that for kicks, except troll at RPGnet instead, but I'm just too damn lazy to go through the registration process for that

I haven't really seen it around. If I want to talk D&D, I come here, since this site does a decent job of discussion all editions. ENWorld is kind of like a neutral meeting ground for D&D players of all types. The only signs of the edition wars I've seen outside this site is on TVTropes, where there's occasional mentions of fanbase fragmentation.

[Bumbles]

Only on the Internet and at the FLGS, and barely there. There are a lot more heated arguments over matters I cannot discuss here because my grandmother would come up from the grave to make me wash my mouth of with soap. Then she'd wash out your eyes for seeing it.

[CleverNickName]

School has been soaking up all of my free time, so I haven't really had much time for the forums of late. On the few occasions that I manage to log in and check my messages, I see the occasional edition war thread here or there on just about any RPG-related site. But far and above, the most active edition battleground I've seen is here at ENWorld.

While the 3E and 4E supporters each have their respective territories (Paizo and WotC respectively,) ENWorld works very hard to remain neutral. Which only makes each side try harder to advance their banners, I think.

That said, there was a pretty heated "discussion" at my FLGS last weekend about 4E vs. Pathfinder. It was making a lot of people uncomfortable and the owner eventually had to ask them to leave, but I couldn't stop snickering because one of the Edition Warriors sounded exactly like this guy.

[jdrakeh]

Originally Posted by Orius

Dragonsfoot? Huh? I thought they talked about nothing but AD&D, the Basic sets and the 3 white books there, and anything post-2e is essentially off-topic. Why would they have an edition war problem unless it's before vs. after 2000?

They explicitly forbid mentioning 3e or 4e by name, but they actually do talk about it quite often using 'funny' acronyms such as "TETSNBN" (The Edition That Shall Not Be Named) or YAETSNBN (Yet Another Edition That Shall Not Be Named) and terms like "4orons" and "3etards" to describe players of newer editions (in fact, they originated the latter of those two terms).

Supposedly, they've banned all discussion of newer editions, positive or negative, but a quick read of the forums tells a different story. Essentially, all they've done is forbid positive discussion of newer editions. Here's a good example of the Edition War over there. That stuff goes on all the time:

Site search results for "TETSNBN."
Site search results for "3etard."
Site search results for "YAETSNBN."

A few posters over there (such as Casey 777), to their credit, have tried to point out how unappealing this makes the place to potential newcomers (and how it drove off former participants) but, so far as I can tell, their efforts have largely fallen on deaf ears. Ah well. . . c'est la vie.

[Aus_Snow]

Oddly enough, some might say, I've found that one of the most inclusive sites for *all* editions of D&D - and its various relatives and offshoots - is. . .

EN World.

There have been some rough times (e.g., new edition), and you get the odd display of aberrant behaviour (it's people, after all). But still. I've checked out most (if not all, perhaps) of the alternatives, and yep, this one compares pretty well on that front.

On the other hand, some places, they just don't want any talk about (for example) 3e, or 4e, or 3e and 4e, or perhaps OD&D/BD&D/1e/2e. . . whatever. And that's OK, so long as that's made perfectly clear to those visiting or (especially) joining. I mean, there are even entire sites dedicated to just one game, or just one edition of a game, etc. It's all good.

Worst places for 'edition wars'? Honestly, RPG sites don't come close. Check out the neverending AMD vs. Intel, ATI vs. nVidia, Linux vs. Windows, PS3 vs. 360, etc., etc. 'debates', but remember to buy some brain bleach just in case. And that's just one broad-ish area. There are many, many others, most of which I'd rather not even mention here.