4e / GSL Suggestions for speeding up our 4e game

[Sadrik]

We have not been very quick with our game we generally play 4-5 hours a night and we are having lots of problems with getting into a combat and then letting that eat up the whole session.

We fought a random encounter against several lizard men last night, it took 2.5 hours for five rounds and we got 200xp. Economically this did not feel like time well spent. Last night's 4 hour session was a major drag, after the game we debated a bit on if there were things we can do to speed up combat (here I am). I just don't see how we can get through a session and actually do something other than get into a skirmish battle and then call it a wrap. This happened last session too when we fought a bunch of goblins (the session my wizard died).

We have seven players. This is a pretty major stumbling block because each player takes around a minute or two to do their rounds (including time to switch players).

We have a group of gamers that only a few of us are hard core enough to know the ins and outs of the system and all of its tactical nuance (~50% of us).

We used this last session:
I helped the DM by using cards and calling who was next. Even telling the player who was up next after the current player to get ready.

Are there any other suggestions to speed up combat? It would be nice to turn that 2.5 hour encounter into a 1 hour encounter. It feels like threading a planet through the eye of a needle.

[malraux]

Well, you could go Surviver on the players and have them vote 2 players out of the group. That would reduce the number of players and motivate the remaining players to be more attentive. The DM can grant immunity to the player that brings the best snacks, etc.

[Rel]

How long have you been playing? I've found that our pace has quickened as the campaign has gone on since the players are more familiar with the base combat rules as well as their powers. A lot hinges on what the GM throws at the group though.

I have a tendency to put the PC's in over their heads vs. powerful foes. They always find a way to survive and the game is fun but these combats are always some of the longer ones. But also we don't track XP so nobody is using that as a metric either.

One suggestion I've seen that reduces "grind" and speeds up combat is that of having all attacks do max damage. That reduces the PC attacks to a single die roll and they can pre-calculate the damage for all their attacks. I've not tried this but it might be worth experimenting with.

[Greatwyrm]

Originally Posted by Sadrik

We used this last session:
I helped the DM by using cards and calling who was next. Even telling the player who was up next after the current player to get ready.

That should help a bunch. Plus, if you're doing something like that, put a time limit on people. Make them pay attention, follow the battle, and be ready to go on their turn. It doesn't have to be draconian, but a minute or two should be plenty.

Also, if you're not using power cards, you should be. Saves a lot of redundant math and looking up stuff in books. If you don't have the DDI character builder, there are lots of good websites with tools to help you make your own.

Can you tell us more about what seems to make things slow down for your group?

[malraux]

more seriously, you should probably have several of the DM tasks handed off to other players and put more publicly. So initiative is kept in the open with 1 player in charge of tracking it. Possibly even damage tracking on monsters. Certainly status effects. Maybe even general mapping on the battlemat duties.

The DM might want to limit certain builds. Beastmaster Ranger for example seems to take a bit more time to resolve; its not a problem in a 5 person party, but with 7, you've got a bit too much. Really, any build that adds extra minis to the board is going to add an extra move action and more time to resolve.

Let see, as a rule, characters should probably handle start of turn stuff on the previous character's turn (taking ongoing damage, regen, etc) so that when they are called, they can start moving. Additionally, end of turn effects happen after they finish and the next person has started, and I'd move * Word into the end of turn stuff, as that doesn't involve the DM. If no one can remember it, then you might want to go ahead and just move start of turn effect to end of turn anyway (as it almost never matters).

The DM might want to look at some of the anti-grind threads. 3/4 HP and double damage, IIRC, will speed up the death of the monsters.

[Obryn]

Didn't you throw in a lot of house-rules powering-down your PCs and forcing reliance on Basic Attacks?

That might be a place to start.

-O

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by Obryn

Didn't you throw in a lot of house-rules powering-down your PCs and forcing reliance on Basic Attacks?

That might be a place to start.

-O

No, we have not switched DMs to me yet. We are by the book. Btw my HRs will power up PCs...

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by malraux

Well, you could go Surviver on the players and have them vote 2 players out of the group. That would reduce the number of players and motivate the remaining players to be more attentive. The DM can grant immunity to the player that brings the best snacks, etc.

Not going to happen. Although the daughter of one of the players has offered to drop out. Although I think we want to be as inclusive as possible so this is not an option. Is the game really going to break down with 7 over 5 though?

[Rel]

The "problem" with 7 players rather than 5 is that not only are there two extra players whose turns take up time but also the DM must throw in more monsters in combats in order to make the game a challenge. This of course extends to other aspects of the game like Skill Challenges that require more rolls so they can involve everybody, more people involved in roleplaying focused scenes, etc.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with having 7 players. But it will necessarily make your combats more lengthy. That's just how the numbers work.

Personally I only have 4 players and I'm quite happy with the smaller group.

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by Rel

How long have you been playing? I've found that our pace has quickened as the campaign has gone on since the players are more familiar with the base combat rules as well as their powers. A lot hinges on what the GM throws at the group though.

I have a tendency to put the PC's in over their heads vs. powerful foes. They always find a way to survive and the game is fun but these combats are always some of the longer ones. But also we don't track XP so nobody is using that as a metric either.

One suggestion I've seen that reduces "grind" and speeds up combat is that of having all attacks do max damage. That reduces the PC attacks to a single die roll and they can pre-calculate the damage for all their attacks. I've not tried this but it might be worth experimenting with.

When I joined the group, I have played the least 4e. However, I am game mechanics whore so I know pretty much all the rules as well or better than the others at the table. The began 4e when it came out, playing every other week. I have been with the group for 8 sessions or so.

Interesting solutions. My gut hunch with the DM is he would prefer to find techniques in figuring out how to improve speed at the table rather than instituting a house rule. When I switch to DM that will not be the case .

So I am not designing the encounters obviously but what simple additions would you give to make encounters that faster and level appropriate?

[frankthedm]

1. Have players sit in order of initiative bonus & either add 10 to their bonus or make one roll for the group. The players then act in that order.

2. Encourage players to decide what they will do before their turns come up. They are supposed to be 6 second rounds.

3. Look it up before you turn comes up.

Handling a large group?

Any tips for speeding up the game? 4e is slowing me down!

My group is TOO BIG

EDIT: How many Copies of the PHB does the group have? Players should not be passing the book and flipping to their classes on each player's turn. if this is happening, go make some photocopies before the next sesion.

[Piratecat]

A 5-6 person combat should take 45-75 minutes, in general. Things we do to keep our combats quick:

- Use initiative cards. I always announce the next three people, saying "Lucas is up, then Cobalt, then the monsters, then Stron." The players know to have their attacks ready when their turn comes up.

- Roll the dice before you look up the modifier. Often times the number is high or low enough that you don't even need to worry about the modifier.

- Roll attacks and damage at the same time.

- Make sure everyone has their normal modifiers pre-recorded. I've seen people who calculate their bonus every time, and it a maddening time-waster.

- Likewise, consider power cards, as they can be placed aside after being used. It helps reduce analysis paralysis.

- DM prep. Have your monsters ready, either copied out of the Compendium and printed, or marked by sticky notes on the correct MM pages.

- Unless a PC's life is at stake, never have the DM stop the game to look up a rule. Have another player look it up while the DM goes on to the next person, then come back to the original player once you know the answer.

- Make players responsible for remembering their conditions, both good and bad. The 4e Battlebox has markers that help with this.

- Pre-draw complicated battlemaps.

- Read stalker0's Stalker0's Guide to Anti-Grind

- Minimize off-topic table talk! This is really important, and will get easier as the combats get faster (because people won't get bored.)

[malraux]

Originally Posted by Sadrik

Not going to happen. Although the daughter of one of the players has offered to drop out. Although I think we want to be as inclusive as possible so this is not an option. Is the game really going to break down with 7 over 5 though?

Assuming that the time involved is a strictly linear function of the number of players, which i don't believe, 7 players will take 40% longer per combat. If there's a higher order effect, then it gets worse even faster.

[vagabundo]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Minimize off-topic table talk! This is really important, and will get easier as the combats get faster (because people won't get bored.)

I give the players 5-10 mins OT (off-topic) time every hour or so. Things that happen during the game spark jokes and that generally leads to non-gaming stuff, I let it run for a while - because they are all funny guys and it is suppose to be fun - but then when it starts to veer off I tell them to "save it for OT". Works a treat, everyone stays focused for the 50 mins. Everybodies 'appy.

[Jack99]

What I do (along with most of the suggestions posted by PC) is to simply announce who is next, and if he doesn't state anything within a short amount of time, I start counting down from 10. If I get to 0, he forfeits his turn this round.

Works fairly well.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We have an initiative board. (Since I read about initiative card). One player manages it, and calls out whose turn is next.

I suppose I really really really recommend preparing character sheets and power cards. You don't have to use "real" cards. You can just print them on a few extra sheets, like from the Character Builder. Ensure that the stats are filled in and everything is calculated. The only thing to keep in memory then are any buffs or ongoing effects.

Beyond that, it's all in the reflexes... Err, I mean it is all about understanding the current game situation and figure out which of your list of options works best.
It might help to analyze the situation first and then check which options would apply. (For example, if you see that the Rogue has no flanking partner yet, figure out how to give him one. If there is a melee brute not in melee, think about if you have an ability that let's you keep him there, neutralizing him for a round or so. If there is a melee brute or soldier in melee, consider how to get him out of there. if there is an Artillery monster around, consider how to take it down so it stops laying waste to the party. If there is a character in big trouble, figure out what option will help you to get out of there. Depending on your character, you should know whether you can actually help in a given situation. "Hmm, I am a Fighter. I probably can't immobilize the brute and then run away. So maybe I should help the Rogue with his flanking partner? Or engage some of those that hammer our Cleric?"

It might not be a bad idea if at least someone in the group is constantly paying attention and helps others make their decisions faster. Unless you don't like other players giving suggestions. (Of course, that player should give actually good suggestions. )

[Hereticus]

This will improve with DM familiarity of the material (encounter, monsters and mechanics), and player familiarity with their own characters abilities and powers.

That's what worked for us.

What level were the characters, and for how long was your group playing?

[jbear]

My group is large as well (7 or 8 players usually).

Combats are slow. Most of my players are totally new to RPG.

As an incentive to act quickly, even at the risk of making a tactical mistake, I turn a minute sand timer. If the player finishes their turn before the sand runs out they receive a bonus of 2xp. I keep a side note of who aquires the bonus points. The bump in xp in the end is minor but there is an urgency each time someone begins their turn now.

I have also offered personal 'tutorials' to each player outside of play. I go through their characters abilities and I explore how they can make the most of each power tactically in varying situations. I haven't seen the fruit of this as yet. Hopefully as the game continues to progress, their game agility will increase as well.

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

A 5-6 person combat should take 45-75 minutes, in general. Things we do to keep our combats quick:

Excellent ideas!

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Use initiative cards. I always announce the next three people, saying "Lucas is up, then Cobalt, then the monsters, then Stron." The players know to have their attacks ready when their turn comes up.

We did this last game, it seemed to help a bit.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Roll the dice before you look up the modifier. Often times the number is high or low enough that you don't even need to worry about the modifier.

Agreed, excellent idea.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Roll attacks and damage at the same time.

That is a great idea, for whatever reason in 3e I did this but in 4e I don't, perhaps because I am rolling different damage dice every round. I wonder if we could get compliance...

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Make sure everyone has their normal modifiers pre-recorded. I've seen people who calculate their bonus every time, and it a maddening time-waster.

We have this taken care of on the character sheets.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Likewise, consider power cards, as they can be placed aside after being used. It helps reduce analysis paralysis.

I use them for the first time last session but there is an aversion to the concept of cards at the table. Anti-MtG sentiment, I guess. Still several of us have the sheets of cards printed out just not cut out.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- DM prep. Have your monsters ready, either copied out of the Compendium and printed, or marked by sticky notes on the correct MM pages.

DM prints them out and has sheets that he prepares with HP and stuff to mark off as the combat ensues.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Unless a PC's life is at stake, never have the DM stop the game to look up a rule. Have another player look it up while the DM goes on to the next person, then come back to the original player once you know the answer.

This is also happening already. Many times the rules are looked up either after game or by another player (often me) as we play.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Make players responsible for remembering their conditions, both good and bad. The 4e Battlebox has markers that help with this.

We use colored disks and little numbered things to indicate which monster is which. These add some added effort to get right as we are move disks around and moving the little numbers with the monster minis

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Pre-draw complicated battlemaps.

He usually draws the maps when we play but I was allowed to draw the arena once...

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Read stalker0's Stalker0's Guide to Anti-Grind

I perused through it once before perhaps I will take another look and send it tot he DM.

Originally Posted by Piratecat

- Minimize off-topic table talk! This is really important, and will get easier as the combats get faster (because people won't get bored.)

We may be guilty of this a bit, we often make jokes and laugh a lot at the table. It is fun for the first hour of combat but then player fatigue sets in and then we all look haggard waiting for our action and taking our turn, not to mention the night is wearing on and it is getting later in the night too .

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I use them for the first time last session but there is an aversion to the concept of cards at the table. Anti-MtG sentiment, I guess. Still several of us have the sheets of cards printed out just not cut out.

You can use tokens to mark which powers are still available or expended. You can do the same for second wind or action points.

I just thought - I think I should make up a condition sheet for our own game... At least for myself.