General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Character's don't have to understand the exact number of healing surges they have, or the percentage chance they have to hit an enemy. Same with fighters "knowing" that if their "reliable" Daily Power hits they are not only not able to do that effect again for an entire day but will have a discrete predictable bonus to that action.
What are you talking about?!
PS
__________________ You can clean up vomit, but data is always messy. - Storm's Law
I don't care if you light his face on fire and put it out with an anvil... - A. Taylor
I didn't expect this thread to be so controversial, have such commentary and so little actual roleplaying descriptions. That's cool though.
The reason I posted this is that I prefer 3e to 4e, and one of the reasons is I feel that the game of 4e breaks the narrative too often (for me, obviously not for others).
So, I was attempting to "patch" what I saw was something that needed patching (again, for me, and not for all).
For me, fighter dailies are like spells. Someone mentioned using their martial powered uberdevice to blow up the world. So while they feel like spells, clearly they are, or should be different thematically. I'd like to have the cleanest story justification for my own personal immersion in my character.
Here's my biggest gripe with the 4e rules:
For me, 4e constantly jolts me out of my character when I do things that are clearly designed to be fun "battlemap game powers" with the fluff sort of cast to the side. Examples are fighter dailies, an immediate interrupt of teleporting across the board when someone swings at an ally, and other when x guy goes down you get this power (even if it isn't your turn) powers.
I don't think they're bad design or that they can't even be "adequately fluffed" to my liking. So I decided to tackle on of the most obvious and frequent ones, fighter dailies.
For me, while I can separate what I do as a player and what I do with my character, the less barrier that is there, the more I feel connected to my character and like I am playing a part rather than moving a piece. It's my favorite part of playing, actually.
So I hope that explains a bit of the rationale behind this thread, why I latched onto the subject (along with the limitations) from the other thread, and why I currently prefer 3e.
I didn't expect this thread to be so controversial, have such commentary and so little actual roleplaying descriptions. That's cool though.
The reason I posted this is that I prefer 3e to 4e, and one of the reasons is I feel that the game of 4e breaks the narrative too often (for me, obviously not for others).
So, I was attempting to "patch" what I saw was something that needed patching (again, for me, and not for all).
It was pretty clear that was your intent from the start, which is probably why you got more commentary than examples.
I respect the idea of it, but for me anyway, the only 'reason' that matters is the one that comes out of the in-game fiction at the moment the power's used. Usually for me those are as simple as "Seeing that the orc's off balance, I sweep him off his feet. (Power Name)" or something like that.
Trying to come up with some general rules like, say, 3.5's magic system, that's a well-trod path of discussion here.
So, I was attempting to "patch" what I saw was something that needed patching (again, for me, and not for all).
For me, the fact that it needs to be "patched" at all is a problem.
The Vancian "fire-and-forget" system just is not an excellent system for modeling many things aside from, well, Jack Vance, and maybe card games.
Reality doesn't work that way (which is why it's a problem with martial power, the most "realistic" of the powers, more than it is with anything else).
The Daily signifies when the A-Team music starts playing in the background.
As someone that hated the A-Team, you are not helping to persuade me.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
Reality doesn't work that way (which is why it's a problem with martial power, the most "realistic" of the powers, more than it is with anything else).
My reality appears to differ from yours. When people get in the zone in stressful situations, amazing things can happen.
-blarg
__________________ Red Hot Swing
"In Inspired Sarlona, nightmares have you!" -Klaus
My reality appears to differ from yours. When people get in the zone in stressful situations, amazing things can happen.
-blarg
Yes, and exactly once per day I can "get in the zone," but no more, no less, no matter how many stressful situations I get in?
It's okay to be fine with unrealistic dailies, but to try and say "dailies aren't unrealistic!" isn't a very defensible position, I think. They're clearly a gamist construction, made for the play rather than for the suspension of disbelief. That's not an objective problem, but it's going to be a problem for some players. You can gloss over it, but however you do, it's a patch for a flaw, not a success of the design.
I think all of the explanations the OP gives plus the regular one that martial exploits actually exploit a specific combat situation are valid fluff to make martial dailies believable.
There are so many things in older editions that are just as difficult to put into fluff but are believed and accepted. Some examples:
A spellcaster can cast a level 8 spell, but not an additional two 3rd level spells instead without the proper spell.
A paladin can cast Remove Disease once a week and not once per day.
Skill Tricks can be used only once per encounter.
The reason for those rules is and has always been balance. You can put fluff around it, and we all did all those years. But if we did that, why is it so hard for some of us to find some believability in the already existing fluff for martial dailies?
I cannot wrap my head around it.
The secret is in the wrist. Most people don't use all the muscles in their arm, because the wrist and finger muscles are generally pretty weak. You've trained your wrist and finger muscles to, at the point of impact, push forward with that little extra bit of oomph, giving your attack FAR more follow through and power than you normally could achieve. However, this puts a lot of strain on your wrist, and if you tried it again without resting you risk breaking it.
The technique of your style was created by an Arkhosian warrior of old, taller and stronger than any man. The strikes have speed and power that are nearly godlike. Unfortunately, you're an elf. Though strong, your power can't match his, and your build is just too different. The most potent techniques of the style put enormous strain on your light body, tearing apart your muscles as you use it.
Useful for a speed move like Cascade of Blows: It's a well known fact that you should time your strikes with your breath. Exhaling as you strike gives you greater power and speed, inhaling as you retract and parry gives you greater muscle tension for defense. A perfect internal timer for the flow of battle. However, there's another internal timer: Your heart. Timing your strikes to your heartbeat allows you to strike mulitiple times in the space of a few seconds. Do I really need to go into why keeping this up is a bad idea?
People note barbarian rage as "makes perfect sense" but if you look at it closer it really doesn't.
A 1st level barbarian rages and cannot rage any more for the day. The common argument is "he's fatigued from the rage, and so can't perform that kind of exhilaration again for the day".
Except....in all other ways he's perfectly fine. He's as unexhausted just a short time after he rages as he was in the beginning of the day. No penalties to skill checks, con rolls, he can run just as far, nor does he take any penalties when hit with another fatiguing effect.
So when you boil it down, rage is the original "martial daily" and has the same flaws in its explanation as any other daily.
Overall, I think the crit argument is the best I've seen. For my characters, its not that I'm not trying to use my dailies, I am all the time. Its just that sometime the timing is right, the adrenaline is pumping, and everything comes together for that "perfect moment". Just like a crit, I can't just make it happen (my character of course, the player can).
Only if people actually playing the game have a problem with it no?
Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Obviously if you have no problem with it, it's not a problem as it is -- it doesn't hurt YOUR suspension of disbelief enough to be an issue, which is fine.
It's quite another thing to say "No one should have a problem with them not making sense, 'cuz they totally make sense!" ...for instance...
Quote:
Originally Posted by blargney the second
per daily ability. At second level that could be three times a day
For different abilities. I can't get in the zone for the same ability more than once per day, exactly, no matter how many stressful situations come up? If I lift a car off of a kid with a surge of adrenaline, I can't do it again that same day, even if I can get in the zone well enough to, I don't know, hurt someone when I miss them?
The thrust of this is that they hurt verisimilitude for some people. Do you really want to try and tell those people that they're feelings are wrong just because they're not playing make-believe right? That their problem isn't with the rules, it's with their inability to think about things in the right way?
Personally I love finding & personalizing the fluff for all my powers, making them part of the character instead of just something the character does. I see them as RP opportunities. Sadly (from DMing) I know that I am in a minority. And I say 'sadly' 'cause I think powers offer a lot of RP & character potential. But hey, that's not for everyone.
The thing I LIKE about dailys is that you get to look for an answer as to WHY they're a daily. And I find it's often different for each daily. Sometimes it's a physical thing. Think of Riggs dislocating his shoulder to get out of a straitjacket. Hurts like hell. You do NOT want to do that too often. Eventho once it's popped back in you can still function ok.
Sometimes it's an environmental thing - the bad guy has got to be really bad/threat really high for you to be able to get into the mindset for Villian's Menace. And once you've done it, you need to chill out to shake it out of your system before you can do it again. It messes you up, not physically but emotionally.
For Blinding Barrage I always had it that my rogue carried around a whole bunch of shuriken, pepper powder & flash bombs stowed in a very particular way on his person and after he's used them, it'd take hours to get the whole thing prepared & set again.
I see at-wills as a part of a character and encounter powers as tricks and big techniques of their fighting style. But with dailys - I see them as OUTSIDE the character. Things that are only nominally at their command.
The thrust of this is that they hurt verisimilitude for some people. Do you really want to try and tell those people that they're feelings are wrong just because they're not playing make-believe right? That their problem isn't with the rules, it's with their inability to think about things in the right way?
Yes.
I'm not kidding there.
There are numerous examples of previous editions with very similiar rules. As others have pointed out, barbarian rage as an excellent counter.
More 'critical' through all editions, hit points.
If you approach the game and don't like the way it handles the mechanics, to the point where you can't play it, then the game is not for you as written and from that perspective, you're not playing make-believe right and their problem isn't with the rules, it's with their inability to think about things in the right way.
I don't go to GURPS and go, "Man, the lack of the FASERIP stats from the old Marvel Super Heroes game is really hurting my disbelief here. I mean, how can you go on without Karma for Odin's sake?"
If you can't approach the game in the spirit is it written and can't enjoy it, your perspective isn't going to change enough to make it worth playing.
Can I see some people going, "Martial powers are really just magical beans in disguise and I don't like that BUT I'm going to enjoy the game anyway?" Sure. Can I see some people going, "because Martial powers are not supposed to be magical and the whole point of the game's intricate balance demands they act like every other power in the game, I can't enjoy it and I must impress this view on other people!" then I don't care. If the game's not for you, like the ole song by All American Rejects, Move Along.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
