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Thoughts on my 4E anniversary, E1 and Paragon levels
Incredibly, it is now exactly a year since I ran my first session of D&D 4E - the first session of Keep on the Shadowfell. In Australia, the adventure arrived about a month late, so I got it almost with the core rulebooks. Certainly, we all had the rulebooks when we played that first session, although we still (mostly) were using the pregenerated characters.
Yesterday, I ran a "interim" session for that campaign to make sure everyone in the group had achieved 11th level. Our next session will see us embarking on the first of the Paragon level adventures: King of the Trollhaunt Warrens, of which I've spoken highly before. I hope it plays as well as it reads!
It seems like a good time to reflect on how 4e has treated us and we've treated 4e over the past year.
Honestly, 4e has been a tricky proposition. There are things I adore about the system, for instance the healing surges, the lack of dependence on clerics and the much, much shorter statblocks for monsters, but getting used to elements like rituals and skill challenges has taken longer. We still don't use rituals much (even in the homebrew game I ran), and it was only during the D&D Game Day a couple of weeks ago that I was happy with how a skill challenge was written.
Then too, the players have had to get used to the system and the new emphases for playing and building their characters. The fighter is no longer the character for beginning characters. (Our group believes the ranger is far better as such). I've had a few players not quite content with the number of options available to their characters, but there have been two things that have gone a long way towards fixing that.
The first is the release of the Power books and the Player's Handbook II. With those books, it is astonishing to see how much they've filled in the system and provided a wealth of options for character building. 4E feels much more a "complete" system with them.
The other, and by no means the least important, is the D&D Insider. Nathaniel subscribed to it a few weeks ago, and he's now greatly addicted to it. The impact of being able to look up at the game table every feat and power published in the system without having to flip through masses of books cannot be underestimated. And then, when it includes feats and powers from books or sources (such as the minis) that you don't have? Fantastic! And Nathaniel is a Mac user!
So, as 4e matures as a system, a lot of the original rough edges are seeming to be smoothed out. It's no longer the 4e that was originally released.
Another aspect of 4e that might not be apparent to everyone, especially those that have only scanned the core books, is that the implied "points of light" world is getting more and more detailed. The adventures have helped here: although they're not quite as detailed as I'd like in the descriptions of individual rooms, I've read quite a bit of "setting" background which has filled in history, given relationships of the gods and primordials, and more material of that nature that I've found inspiring and entertaining.
Then too, books like Open Grave are great for more of those details. I really can't praise Open Grave enough. Its predecessor in the 3e days was a book I found particularly boring and rarely used... but Open Grave is finding its way into more and more of the adventures I write, and now it's beginning to inspire them as well.
E1 finally arrived this week. (Australia seems to get the rest of the D&D books on their release date. Why do the adventures seem to take 6 weeks more?) Inside it were a number of really nice surprises. The first was that E1 is properly the first part of a trilogy of epic level adventures. I don't think you can say that about the H or P series, but E1 has a very open (you might say, cliff-hanger!) ending. And it's a doozy. It may be another year before I run it, but I'm really looking forward to it.
The second really nice thing about E1 relates to the way that the rooms actually have descriptions in the first adventure book; in particular murals that give some of the history of the world, with History and related skill checks to allow the PCs to get even more information than just the bare mural. There's more of the primordial war against the gods here, which is one of the best things about the mythology of 4e.
Finally, I got a real surprise with the Raven Queen. I'll put it in spoiler tags not to ruin the surprise for anyone who might play the adventure: The Raven Queen took over the rulership of the land of the dead from Nerull - a 3e god that (to my knowledge) hasn't before appeared in any 4e text! Ooh...
However, as I mentioned, it'll be a while before my group reach E1. They're only just up to P1, and the first aspects of Paragon levels are just becoming apparent... and we're all getting very excited.
You see, Paragon levels actually mean something in 4e. It's very much like what happened when you reached your first Prestige Class in 3e, but far more consistently cool and awesome. Nathaniel, who reached 11th level before everyone else (there's an advantage with hosting the game and therefore being present for every session!), was demonstrating the powers of his half-elven fey warlock to all and sundry yesterday. He's taken a paragon class that allows him to do damage whenever he teleports... and (by virtue of D&D Insider) he's got a utility power that allows him to teleport at will!
Oh, boy. It's not overpowered at all - although it's great for clearing out minions - but he's having an absolute blast with it. Greg's (new) cleric will be able to take on an angelic form, and that's making his day. I'm not sure what Adam and Josh are doing with their paragon levels, but I'm sure they'll enjoy them.
There really is a feeling that the PCs have gone from novice adventurers to being real heroes at the world. I can only assume that the same will apply once they reach the epic levels.
So, 4E, one year on. Am I enjoying it more than when I started? Yes, definitely. I would say that it's now my favourite version of D&D to DM. To play? I don't know. I haven't actually been able to play it yet! I think there are still things that can be done to improve the game, especially with regard to the way skills and skill challenges are handled, but I feel that it's breadth of options and ease of play have now reached a level where it is a truly superior system. Of course it's not for everyone, but it's a game I feel very happy playing.
Good to hear that both you and the players are enjoying it...
D&D insider really is neat and as a DM, I'm actually slighlty jealous...
I've actually got a couple of players who, while looking over insider and reading Shelley's journal thought "Hey, this DMing thing doesn't look that tough...can we give it a shot?".
DndInsider is taking away all the mystique of being a DM
I'm really looking forward to the DDI insider campaign tools, it could really be the bee's knees.
Anyway, I started DMing 4e early, I gave up on my City of the Spider Queen adventure in feb 08 as soon as the leaks/preview rules arrives in some usable form with some character sheets.
I'm really enjoying it, but we don't get a lot of game time per week and my players are only at 5th level. I'd love to actually play it and not DM it.
God it feels longer than a year to me. .
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
"Mercy!? You want MERCY? I'M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!" One of my rituals is soon to be published in Goodman Games's Book of Rituals... Yey...
Just wanted to chime in too. My 4e Age of Worms game started on year ago, on June 6th, when the books came out here stateside. Right now, the PC's are 8th level, and are about to hit 9th.
We've had some ups and downs, with people both using 3e speak in the game along with MMO-talk. Rituals hardly see use since the party's wizard doesn't want to spend his money on them. Skill Challenges are a mixed bag as far as going over well - we've had some good and some bad ones. We also don't use the power books - just the core 3, except permission can be granted for the outside stuff (In 3e, we did this too).
That said, I know I've had a blast running it. The game doesn't feel tedious anymore, and I'm not worried about one-shotting a player to death. I think my players are enjoying it too. At least one is a diehard convert, which is both good and bad, and one is still very much on the fence.
I'm hoping Paragon Levels do the same thing for this group that they're doing for yours. It should happen soon here!
I'm hoping Paragon Levels do the same thing for this group that they're doing for yours. It should happen soon here!
As someone who ran all of Age of Worms with 3.5e rules: Good luck!
I have a feeling that your campaign will run a lot more smoothly than mine did at the higher levels. Age of Worms managed to demonstrate to us all the real flaws of 3.5e at the higher levels: useless rogues (everything immune to sneak attack), super-power flying (some encounters couldn't fight back!) and grapple checks that were just impossible to make. (Like I care about removing my Dex bonus when I'm eating you! I'm undead! Can't sneak attack me!)
Merric, what do you think about how magic items have been implemented? We think something is missing... but we can't put our finger on it.
My personal theory is that they are just fine but they have lost the 'magic' of being magical because they are in the PH, and thus the players feel initialed to them.
Next time I DM (a month or so) I am going to get some artifacts into the game which should spice it up... hehe.
Merric, what do you think about how magic items have been implemented? We think something is missing... but we can't put our finger on it.
My personal theory is that they are just fine but they have lost the 'magic' of being magical because they are in the PH, and thus the players feel initialed to them.
Next time I DM (a month or so) I am going to get some artifacts into the game which should spice it up... hehe.
The trouble with magic items in every edition of the game is that, mostly, they're not very magical. A +2 sword really isn't that interesting, and, for the most part, that's the primary magic item everyone sees. (At least 4e gives them additional properties for the most part).
I remember the two really magical items from my early AD&D days when I was really, really inexperienced were a wand of fire and a staff of power, both of which my magic-user, Meliander, acquired. The wand of fire was so good because Meliander was barely a 6th level magic-user... and he had this wand that could cast fireball 90 times! My DM soon got very sick of the wand.
It was magical because it made me so much more powerful than I was... but, boy, it meant I dominated the game. That's the trouble with really "magical" effects. They've got to be powerful... and that proves difficult in sustained play. (Eventually, the DM made sure my wand was stolen from me).
These days, I believe that to have really magical items and effects you need to make unique items that aren't in the rulebook. That's not to say that you shouldn't give out a lot of the more "mundane" items! One trap that I've found myself falling into is only giving out "Big 3" items in 4e. No, give out a lot of the non-weapon/armour/cloak items (mostly of lower levels), because they're interesting. Especially consumables from AV. However, for the real "magic" in magic items, unique bizarre items need to be added - and that's for a DM to do, not the rulebooks for the most part.
One of my players has a +3 vicious weapon. He really, really loves it. Is it magic? Perhaps not as we see it, but he loves the effect when he rolls a critical (+3d12 damage rather than the more normal +3d6). I suppose it's all in your perception of it. Us experienced player-types...
Nice post! It looks like your experience matches my own, up to and including just starting P1. We have gotten one play session of P1 in and it's been a blast to play in.
Here's hoping the paragon levels treat you right. We're almost halfway into them- the top level in the party just hit 14th- and there is a definite change in the cool monsters that I can throw at my group. They've met both a lich and a death knight, even if they didn't fight both of them...
So far, my group played the first three levels of Heroic and the the first three levels of Paragon. This is what I've found (though take it with a grain of salt; the Heroic levels were an adventure I created myself, Paragon was a conversion of Exp. to Castle Ravenloft):
The H levels, the PCs were in more danger. Minions were meaningful, elites were tough, solos were hard. In the P levels, the party was only in danger the one time they overexerted themselves by doing 7(!) encounters without an extended rest. Other than that, they pretty much cakewalked everything. Minions lasted a whole round if lucky, nothing special about elites and Strahd, a L20 solo, didn't even knock out one of the L13 PCs in that very long fight (they even had 3 encounters before the solo fight without an ext. rest).
So we're now starting back at L1 with the Scales of War AP. I'm doing the 3/4 hp/+1/2 lvl dmg mod (something I started at the end of EtCR), so we'll see how that goes. The first session, the players were overwhelmed by their PCs' fragility. A kuthrik fight nearly TPKed them. They weren't used to having even one of them falling unconcious, let alone 3 of them.
Overall, though, it's a fun game, and I personally love DMing it. Prep is phenominal (easy, quick and enjoyable), especially with DDI. That's probably the single best RPG purchase I think I've ever made (and I'm a grognard from way back).
I was really on the fence about going back to 4th edition after discovering the older versions of the game, but I think this thread is really making me want to try it again. I think I'll like the game more once I get the Monster Manual II. I was let down with the number of monsters, and I think that contributed a lot to my group's not playing a lot. Also, I only have two friends who are into the game, leading to a two person party, which 4th edition doesn't really work as well for.
__________________ IF IT EXISTS, NERDS WILL ARGUE ABOUT IT
As someone who ran all of Age of Worms with 3.5e rules: Good luck!
Thanks MerricB - I actually read a couple of your posts on why it sucked. I've run Age of Worms previously in 3.5, and was already working on those exact problems you had. Then 4e came out, and I haven't really looked back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator
Our whole party chips in on rituals. Both components and the cost to learn them. Might be worth pursuing.
Yeah, it ended up that way.
Re: Magic Items:
Honestly, I got this feeling in 3e too - magic items were a dime a dozen, and you were selling all the +1 swords you came across. At least, this happened all three times I ran Shackled City from start to finish.
By the book, they are pretty bland. But so were +1 swords in 3e. If you want magical items to be, well, magical - mix it up. Give them Properties and have them do different things. I've usually taken the liberty of adding stuff to weapons, although minor. +1 to this skill, glows like a torch, or unerringly points north when commanded. Stuff like that.
My 4e campaign died a slow death. None of my players were very happy with it. Running an online game of KotS helped a lot more, as the players were far more enthusiastic about the system.
Looking back at my own DMing, I am only now starting to get over the eagerness for simple combat. I still want to run the system through its paces, to get to play with all these cool monsters, but that's cooling.
I also see the places where lovers of older editions hit a wall, and in the future I will try to pre-emptively try to shift the focus of players, especially before the game begins.
At this stage, I'm still very leery of skill challenges. I'm not sure how to run them in a smooth fashion, especially with players. How to present it in a manner that does not feel wooden and mini-game like.
I wonder how many others are working up to their one year anniversary? We'll hit a year on July 22 and can't wait.
My group was a bunch of old school players who hadn't played pen and paper in years(decades). It's been a great run and keeps getting better.
We're fast approaching paragon(this seems pretty standard, one year/tier) and while the world is my own design, I've really enjoyed the Open Grave source book as well. Hands down, the DMG was still the best source book I've ever read.
The character builder has been a boon for the players, making it very easy for them to precompute everything and generally makes the game run faster.
The addition of a tactical map has also been a great way to mix up combat and keep things interesting.
Artifacts, artifacts, artifacts...The best ever implementation of artifacts and I think many DMs need to let go of the idea of artifacts only appearing once a tier....
My 5-6 party usually has at least two artifacts at any one time...These are the cool magic items IMO.
As well, I don't have the PCs using a wishlist...Using the DMG, I incorporated the expected bonuses into the character and I got rid of the magical shoppe as mentioned there.
Now, with only magic items being found, my pcs tend to love what they actually find...This of course only works since my players like the random nature of magic items (and I still have the transfer magic item ritual so even if they find a magic battleaxe, it's no problem to transfer it to another type of item)
I don't want to derail the thread, but on the topic of magical items...
Spoiler:
I've found magical items were a real stumbling block for one of my players too.
I've been contemplating how to change magical items, because I don't like how the system treats them. I don't like how many you're expected to have, and I strongly dislike +X items.
My general feeling about magical items is that you get 1-3 that have a suite of linked abilities, and those stay with you for quite some time of your career. One thing I liked from a story perspective was 3e's Weapons of Legacy, that weapons gained powers and had mechanical representations of their history.
So here is something I had in mind. Bare in mind it's rather quick and dirty:
Sword of the Icy Field (Level 6)
Property: Gain resist 5 cold.
Proeprty: Gain Ice Walk.
Power (At-Will): As a move action, freeze all non-magical, non-animated liquid in a close burst 2. Anyone in the liquid are pushed back 2 squares. The frozen liquid can be walked on, but is treated as challenging terrain (wielder of Sword is immune).
Power (Encounter): Attack: Level+2 vs. Reflex; Anyone in the liquid when the At-Will power is used are immobilized (save ends) instead.
Power (Daily): Standard action. Create an ice wall 5 with 8 until end of your next turn. Wall has 40 HP, vulnerability fire 5. Wielder is treated as having Phasing with regards to the created wall. Sustain minor: wall persists.
Shield of the Abating Flame (Level 11)
Property: Resist fire 10.
Property: All enemies that use the Fire keyword are treated as marked by the Shield's wielder.
Power (At-Will): Minor action. The wielder of the shield may transfer any benefit of this shield's abilities to any non-combatant ally he is carrying/holding hands with.
Power (Encounter): Immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack. Target takes 1d8+con fire damage.
Power (Daily): Immediate reaction, when hit by an attack that deals fire damage. Gain hit points equal to half the damage dealt by the attack, before applying the shield's fire resistance.
Items now become mini-artifacts. The idea is to take an item and give it some serious thematic powers/properties. Although the powers are fairly situational (the shield vs. fire, the sword freezing liquids), it fits the theme.
One thought I had towards this is that you have a limited number of items, but you also have a list of thematic powers. The list would be used to:
1) Upgrade them, by doing things story related that would awaken those powers (ala Weapons of Legacy), or the DM chooses from the list and adds it on there as a reward for level up.
2) Assemble your own items. This might even let you have a linked set, like the Sword of the Icy Plain, the Armor of the Glacial Shell, and the Frozen Heart Amulet.
The real trick is balancing this, not only in terms of what the items do, but also balancing how to make it not an uber broken thing in and of itself, especially as they grow in power or PCs get more than 1.
At this stage, I'm still very leery of skill challenges. I'm not sure how to run them in a smooth fashion, especially with players. How to present it in a manner that does not feel wooden and mini-game like.
Rechan, if you can get hold of the last Worldwide Game Day adventure, do so. ("Journey through the Silver Caves") The skill challenge in it is the best I've yet seen.
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