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....every exchange in combat involves a lot of back and forth -- you can't even resolve a successful hit without input from all parties.
You could try it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
But it's _awesome_ face to face!
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. The thing is I don't play face-to-face right now, so I need good systems for PbP or chat. It might work on the latter, though based on the descriptions it still wouldn't be as fun.
Until they make a Mac version it's not free for me because I'd have to buy Windows. I have no other need of Windows, so it's not worth the purchase to me.
edit: now I find myself wanting to convert my soon-to-be-off-hiatus 13th level 3.5e campaign to SotC. The current plan is to convert it to M&M2e/W&W (an easier system for me to run than high-level 3.5e). But SotC seems like such a terrific way to describe the PC's. Running jokes would become their actual character abilities (specifically, 'Not in the Face', 'In His Hands Cowardice is a Deadly Weapon', 'He's Covered in Blood Again', 'I Bottle It!').
I wonder if I could sell my guys on this...
It might be a bit difficult to adjudicate all the different spell effects. A good magic system is one thing that SotC is lacking.
I've been thinking for a while now about how to use Aspects in M&M. M&M's hero points already work a lot like Fate points, so it would be easy to say something like "you can only spend a hero point when invoking an aspect." Or, to be less harsh, make rerolls without an aspect use only a straght d20, with rerolls-by-aspects using the standard M&M 11-20 reroll.
Rather than M&M's vague rules for "the GM gives a hero point when he spends one, or when he uses GM's fiat", just use SotC's tag and compel aspect mechanics.
I've been thinking for a while now about how to use Aspects in M&M. M&M's hero points already work a lot like Fate points, so it would be easy to say something like "you can only spend a hero point when invoking an aspect." Or, to be less harsh, make rerolls without an aspect use only a straght d20, with rerolls-by-aspects using the standard M&M 11-20 reroll.
Rather than M&M's vague rules for "the GM gives a hero point when he spends one, or when he uses GM's fiat", just use SotC's tag and compel aspect mechanics.
I too have been putting some thought into adding aspects to M&M. My biggest concern in so doing is combat issues. M&M combat is balanced on the fact that players should be able to re-roll their toughness saves. You'll want to make sure that all characters have a way of making a reroll on most toughness saves.
I like your idea on re-rolls being different. How about if a non-aspected re-roll is just a straight re-roll where you take the new roll. If you use an aspect for a reroll use the M&M rule of adding 10 if you roll under 10 on the reroll.
My other concern would be that FATE's +2 is a fairly good percentage of the available values of a FATE role (12 being about the highest you can roll unmodified) where as you're looking at close to twice that on a standard M&M roll. Maybe a +5 modifier for tagging an aspect instead?
I like your idea on re-rolls being different. How about if a non-aspected re-roll is just a straight re-roll where you take the new roll. If you use an aspect for a reroll use the M&M rule of adding 10 if you roll under 10 on the reroll.
That's what I meant.
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My other concern would be that FATE's +2 is a fairly good percentage of the available values of a FATE role (12 being about the highest you can roll unmodified) where as you're looking at close to twice that on a standard M&M roll. Maybe a +5 modifier for tagging an aspect instead?
Fate dice have a steep probability curve, so that +2 is a very large difference, mathematically. Also, going from a standard reroll to an 11-20 reroll is effectively a +5: the average on a d20 is 10.5, while the average on the M&M reroll is 15.5.
BTW, thanks for the concrete example of a fight scene. Some questions:
Do you flat-out tell players what Aspects the NPC's and environment have at the start of a scene?
The obvious ones. I usually do it via verbal tic -- "The squat, heavily muscled gobelin chieftain's enormous bronze axe gleams dully in the light of the bonfire. His twelve minions cavort in the dark fringe around the light".
That the chieftan is prideful or a coward, however, I wouldn't lay out. Anything obvious makes its way into the description, with special emphasis for toys I suspect they'll use or I'll use.
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Do you choose all the environmental/NPC Aspects beforehand or stick to text descriptions, assigning Aspects on the spot (bit of both, I'm guessing)?
Yup Indeed, in the original scene, I didn't remember to allow a scene aspect for "enormous bonfire", just for the dark fringes. It still totally counted. Verbal description matters.
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edit: now I find myself wanting to convert my soon-to-be-off-hiatus 13th level 3.5e campaign to SotC. The current plan is to convert it to M&M2e/W&W (an easier system for me to run than high-level 3.5e). But SotC seems like such a terrific way to describe the PC's. Running jokes would become their actual character abilities (specifically, 'Not in the Face', 'In His Hands Cowardice is a Deadly Weapon', 'He's Covered in Blood Again', 'I Bottle It!').
Join us. Joiiiiin uuuuuussssss....
There's a lot to be said for playing SotC and raiding a 1e D&D PHB, DMG, and MM.
I myself treat a character with 6 aspects, 3 stunts, and a pyramid that caps at +3 as a 1-2 lvl character; 8 aspects, 4 stunts, and a +4 pyramid as 5th level, 10 aspects, 5 stunts, and a +5 pyramid as a 9th level character... though the arrival of 4e has meant that I sorta have to rejigger what counts as "paragon".
I still haven't decided how I want to extend SotC into epic, if indeed I do
I myself treat a character with 6 aspects, 3 stunts, and a pyramid that caps at +3 as a 1-2 lvl character; 8 aspects, 4 stunts, and a +4 pyramid as 5th level, 10 aspects, 5 stunts, and a +5 pyramid as a 9th level character... though the arrival of 4e has meant that I sorta have to rejigger what counts as "paragon".
I still haven't decided how I want to extend SotC into epic, if indeed I do
So considering that D&D has a "randomizer range" of 20 (1d20) and SotF/FATE has a randomizer range of 9 (+4 to -4), it seems like each unit in D&D should equal 1/2 unit in SotC, or really close there. Especially in editions earlier than 4e, where a single hit can kill you, the condition track sorta backs this up if you count each box as a unit too.
So in this case, 1st to 2nd level should be pyramid of 1, 2 aspects, a stunt, and a single conditoin track box. For every 2 D&D levels, you increase the pyramid by 1, give another 2 aspects, another stunt, and one more condition track box. Standard SotC would be ~10th level, which sounds about right for paragon level Century Club members.
So my partial hack so far has, divide D&D level by 2, round up. Set aspects, pyramid, stunts, and condition track to this number. This is fewer aspects than standard SotC, but I also allow 2 open story aspects that you can fill in in the middle of play to reflect the current conditions of the storyline, and I also allow on the fly stunts. These aspects and stunts give are sorta the basis for what they gain as they level.
Things get sorta wacky above 10th level for pre-4e editions, but that is when they always did, hence the E6 hack popularity. The stunts to simulate D&D spells are being worked on. I replace BAB/THACO/Fighty ability with Melee and Ranged skill, and magic ability with a magic skill and some sort of magic aspects. Weapons are bing simplified to unarmed/small/medium/two handed for -1/0/+1/+2 to hit. Armor is being simplified similarly. Magic items give aspects, but not stand alone bonuses.
I am also playing with a series of free aspects and stunts that come as a package at chargen to sort of simulate class. These will be along the lines of striker/leader/controller/defender from 4e, with the stunts designed to allow eack character to pull off that role, no matter what skills are taken to support it. Something like controllers get a bonus to adding aspects to enemies, defenders get a bonus to block actions, strikers obviously do a little more damage, leaders can buff/heal in some fashion. Multiclassing is handled by taking aspects/stunts. So a paladin might be a defender, with extra aspects dedicated to religious stuff and stunts dedicated to "leader type healing ability". So it basically is classless, but there is a free package that everyone gets that simulates classes.
I also like using generic stunts. +2 to specific, +1 to general, substitute skills, or do something not elsewhere covered in the rules. Players can come up with anything that fits this model. Magic is being workded on.
The hardest part is that I need to playtest the Shadow of Yesterday keys hack that I am doing for XP. I think that I just need to play, give XP according to the keys, and then level up the party when I feel it is time. The amount of XP that they have at that point should be what it takes to level for future games.
There's a lot to be said for playing SotC and raiding a 1e D&D PHB, DMG, and MM.
As Atlatl Jones --who plays the Atlatl Jones in the campaign!-- reminds me, I'd kinda need tools for adjudicating (a lot of) spell effects. There are 3 13th level casters in the group. 4, if I keep a retired angry robot Warforged cleric around as an NPC.
This is something the Mutants and Masterminds handily provides.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
So considering that D&D has a "randomizer range" of 20 (1d20) and SotF/FATE has a randomizer range of 9 (+4 to -4), it seems like each unit in D&D should equal 1/2 unit in SotC, or really close there. Especially in editions earlier than 4e, where a single hit can kill you, the condition track sorta backs this up if you count each box as a unit too.
Sorta, but it's not even across that range. The chance of rolling a +4 is 1/81, whereas the chance of rolling a nat'l 20 is more like 1/20 (well, a-duh).
In any case, something like 65% of the rolls are between -1 and 1 in SotC. If you assume that the math should scale directly, bad things will happen, since it's just very, very hard to roll a +4, and even +2s are rare. Thus, each incremental bonus to anything is very, very precious.
Is this something you've actually done & played? How'd it work out for you?
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So in this case, 1st to 2nd level should be pyramid of 1, 2 aspects, a stunt, and a single conditoin track box. For every 2 D&D levels, you increase the pyramid by 1, give another 2 aspects, another stunt, and one more condition track box. Standard SotC would be ~10th level, which sounds about right for paragon level Century Club members.
So my partial hack so far has, divide D&D level by 2, round up. Set aspects, pyramid, stunts, and condition track to this number. This is fewer aspects than standard SotC, but I also allow 2 open story aspects that you can fill in in the middle of play to reflect the current conditions of the storyline, and I also allow on the fly stunts. These aspects and stunts give are sorta the basis for what they gain as they level.
Yeah, but that wouldn't be any fun (at least for me). At that point you get _nothing_ with which to define yourself in the early levels. I mean, you could do it, but I'd never play as less than 6th level -- pick 1 skill and two aspects. Go play. I mean, it could work, but your characters would be extremely incompetent and on the whole, pretty similar. I contend it gives too little agency below level, oh, 6.
I definitely did want to peg Century Club to level 10, so I'm glad we meet back up there
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Things get sorta wacky above 10th level for pre-4e editions, but that is when they always did, hence the E6 hack popularity. The stunts to simulate D&D spells are being worked on. I replace BAB/THACO/Fighty ability with Melee and Ranged skill, and magic ability with a magic skill and some sort of magic aspects. Weapons are bing simplified to unarmed/small/medium/two handed for -1/0/+1/+2 to hit. Armor is being simplified similarly. Magic items give aspects, but not stand alone bonuses.
Cute Have you seen the "weapons as consequences" rule? That's my personal favorite weapon model, because otherwise using anything other than the biggest weapon you can get your hands on is far deadlier than bog-standard D&D.
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I am also playing with a series of free aspects and stunts that come as a package at chargen to sort of simulate class. These will be along the lines of striker/leader/controller/defender from 4e, with the stunts designed to allow eack character to pull off that role, no matter what skills are taken to support it. Something like controllers get a bonus to adding aspects to enemies, defenders get a bonus to block actions, strikers obviously do a little more damage, leaders can buff/heal in some fashion. Multiclassing is handled by taking aspects/stunts. So a paladin might be a defender, with extra aspects dedicated to religious stuff and stunts dedicated to "leader type healing ability". So it basically is classless, but there is a free package that everyone gets that simulates classes.
As Atlatl Jones --who plays the Atlatl Jones in the campaign!-- reminds me, I'd kinda need tools for adjudicating (a lot of) spell effects. There are 3 13th level casters in the group. 4, if I keep a retired angry robot Warforged cleric around as an NPC.
This is something the Mutants and Masterminds handily provides.
pfft, accuracy and fairness in rulings.
It's true.
Though I'd contend that with the addition of two stunts:
Evocation
Prereq: An aspect that indicates your fluency with magic such as Pyromancer or Artificer of a Thousand Quarrels or Student of Demonologist C'heryl.
Effect: You may use Resolve as though it were Guns with trappings appropriate to your aspect. By spending a fate point, you may make an attack against everyone in a zone at -2.
Enchantment
Prereq: An aspect that indicates your fluency with magic such as Beguiling Voice or Student of Tim or Woods Witch.
Effect: You may use Art to place stronger emotional or non-emotional aspects on individuals and scenes. By default these aspects are fragile, though outside of combat success should render them more stable. By spending a fate point, you may make a blatant use of Art while in combat and have it last the encounter.
you cover most of what Mutants & Masterminds would have given you anyway
But it's true, there are reasons to favor a heavier-rules chassis.
And now thinking up Aspects for Joséirus will amuse me for the rest of the afternoon.
"Egyptian God of Mexican Wrestlers"
"Good Catholic Boy"
"I'm Not in a Gang"
"I Can Fix That With Magic!"
"I Had a Nintendo DS"
"The world is my wrestling mat"
"I can do a magic ritual, but I need some refried beans and salsa to draw the pentagram"
"I grapple his soul"
For Chris:
"I hit the girl in the face"
"Stop calling me Douchebag!"
For Atlatl:
"OOOOOOooooooo"
"Tiny dragon body, enormous TARDIS-like brain"
"Khem PO!"
"To make room for more brain, I removed my fear and common sense"
"Possession is ten tenths of the law"
"Ignore that fine print about me owning your soul. The contract is completely valid."
"I mean you no harm. I was only trying to take your blood."
"My culture stole everything it knows, but we only steal from the best"
"Jeeves, fetch my portable hoard"
"Can I bottle 'the absence of life?'"
"I destroyed Leviathan's skeleton, and all I got was this lousy Mark of Cain"
Naturally, Rakhir has "I keep a list of all the people I have killed by letting Atlatl live"
This is Fun!
__________________ "Growf?" *KABOOM*
Last edited by Atlatl Jones; 13th June 2009 at 04:10 AM..
Do you flat-out tell players what Aspects the NPC's and environment have at the start of a scene?
Scenes: generally, but it depends.
NPCs: if it's apparent, you can guess. But determining NPC aspects is one of the major roles of the empathy skill.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Until they make a Mac version it's not free for me because I'd have to buy Windows. I have no other need of Windows, so it's not worth the purchase to me.
Marvel Boy (I). Hercules, the hero of Egypt (don't ask), dies and ascends to Valhalla (don't ask). He's happy there, but one day becomes concerned about the rise to power of the Nazi party in Germany, and so asks Jupiter (the ruler of Valhalla, see) (don't ask) to allow him to return to Earth to fight against that evil. Jupiter grants his wish, and Hercules returns to Earth, reincarnated, in the form of Martin Burns. Burns is born with superstrength, but hasn't done anything with it by the time he reaches adolescence. At that time a package containing a costume--Marvel Boy (I)'s costume--is delivered to the Burns home, and that night a Shadow visits Martin, informing him that he is the reincarnation of Hercules, that there is evil to be fought, and that the weed of crime bears a bitter fruit. Martin goes on to fight crime. He's got superstrength.
First Appearance: Daring Mystery Comics #6 (Timely)
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
Until they make a Mac version it's not free for me because I'd have to buy Windows. I have no other need of Windows, so it's not worth the purchase to me.
There is one, and has been for at least five years. I've been using it on my Mac for that long. ;-)
__________________ 'Imaginary' universes are so much more beautiful than this stupidly constructed 'real' one.
Sorta, but it's not even across that range. The chance of rolling a +4 is 1/81, whereas the chance of rolling a nat'l 20 is more like 1/20 (well, a-duh).
In any case, something like 65% of the rolls are between -1 and 1 in SotC. If you assume that the math should scale directly, bad things will happen, since it's just very, very hard to roll a +4, and even +2s are rare. Thus, each incremental bonus to anything is very, very precious.
This all is very true, but getting bonuses is much easier in FATE than 4e. The normal curve rolls are interesting, and do tend to cut down on the variance of your rolls, but the range is still there.
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Originally Posted by Lackhand
Is this something you've actually done & played? How'd it work out for you?
Not a full game yet. Just a little bit of dice rolling for a playtest with a buddy. We want to work out a few more details before we actually play a full game, and I would rather have something more polished and written out first.
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Originally Posted by Lackhand
Yeah, but that wouldn't be any fun (at least for me). At that point you get _nothing_ with which to define yourself in the early levels. I mean, you could do it, but I'd never play as less than 6th level -- pick 1 skill and two aspects. Go play. I mean, it could work, but your characters would be extremely incompetent and on the whole, pretty similar. I contend it gives too little agency below level, oh, 6.
Yeah, I agree, but we never actually played below 5-6 in anything before 4e anyway. If you are using this method to convert a campaign, you are likely doing it because the characters have some history, and they likely aren't 1st level. I would likely start at a pyramid of 3 with three predetermined aspects and 3 predetermined stunts, with an bonus of 3 stunts from your "class" and 2 "open" aspects to be filled during play. That gives you 6 stunts, 5 aspects, and 6 skills. Definitely a workable character.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackhand
Cute Have you seen the "weapons as consequences" rule? That's my personal favorite weapon model, because otherwise using anything other than the biggest weapon you can get your hands on is far deadlier than bog-standard D&D.
I have. I like them, but I am going to go with the Faster Combat rules, so I want to leave the consequences in the hands of the recieving party. Using a modifier to attack/damage both gets at the fact that a dagger is at a disadvantage to a longword when trying to attack, and will do less damage as well. Armor then also both keeps you from getting hit (like D&D) as well as damage reduction (like how it really works). It seems to streamline things, and with spin increasing the level of consequences, the bonus to attack/damage turns into a bonus to damage/damage reduction if you don't need the bonus for success.
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Originally Posted by Lackhand
Ooo. Fork a thread. Details?
Quick summary.
One of your aspects will relate to your "class". This is equivalent to the background or war phase in SotC. You answer the question "How did you learn your trade?" and then you get a stunt package for free that is related to this aspect.
There are 4 stunt packages, one each for defender, leader, controller, and striker.
Defender Stunts
Tough- use either Might or Melee instead of Endurance when determining extra stress boxes.
Armored- you can use heavy armor and a shield to full effect.
Defender- +2 to any Block action attempt.
Striker Stunts
Quick- +1 to all forms of movement.
Deadly- +2 to any attack.
Lightly Armored- you can use light armor.
Leader Stunts
Healbot- you can either use the Heal skill at +2 to heal stress or downgrade a consequence, or you can use Heal as a supplemental action.
Buffer- +2 to maneuvers to add temporay aspects to you allies.
Medium Armored- you can use medium armor.
Controller Stunts
Zappy- Use the Magic skill instead of Ranged skill to attack.
Boom!- Take a -1 to your ranged attacks and they can target an entire zone.
Meddly- +2 to maneuvers to add aspects to enemies or the scene.
Probably needs some polish, but it gives a skeleton for the roles that 4e set out. Multiclassing would need an appropriate aspect as a prerequisite, and then you would have to dedicate stunts to get the role stunts that you want.
So as an example, if I wanted to make a dwarf fighter type character, I might do something like this. During the background phase, I take the "Dwarf of Sawtooth Mountain Hold" aspect. Takes care of race. Then I take the aspect "Veteran of the Deepingdelve Siege". I take the free Defender stunt package to relate to this. I might envision this armored dwarf to have risen in rank since the siege, so I could take the aspect "That's Seargent Stumpy to you!!!!" in the last phase, and then dedicate two stunts to the Buffer and Heabot Leader Stunts. We now have a passable multiclass dwarf fighter/warlord. Fill in the skill pyramid and the rest of the stunts, add some basic equipment, decide one Keys for XP (I haven't worked this part out completely) and you got yourself a crumugdeon dwarf vet.
Working on a way to have magical effects do composure then health stress. Not exactly sure how I want to do it. So right now I have a quite a bit to work out to make it a finished product that I actually playable.
Indeed, in the original scene, I didn't remember to allow a scene aspect for "enormous bonfire", just for the dark fringes. It still totally counted. Verbal description matters.
If you are using this method to convert a campaign, you are likely doing it because the characters have some history, and they likely aren't 1st level. I would likely start at a pyramid of 3 with three predetermined aspects and 3 predetermined stunts, with an bonus of 3 stunts from your "class" and 2 "open" aspects to be filled during play. That gives you 6 stunts, 5 aspects, and 6 skills. Definitely a workable character. 
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