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So like Dungeon Delve, but separated into individual delves?
Basically, yeah. But done well.
To be honest, Dungeon Delve does sound like exactly what I am after, but I am loathe to trust WotC's adventure design given what I have read about them. Certainly the free excerpt did nothing to sway me to buy the book. A Level 8 ELITE in an encounter with Level 3 PCs?!?! What on earth is going on there?
Plus, more plot that I fear I would get from that. Basically, what Mustrum_Ridcully said.
I'd love to see a big book of GSL-available appropriate monsters converted into PC races, with feats, pseudo-classes á la Spellscared, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies as options to get more monsteryness into your character. Savage Species was probably my favourite 3E book, so something that takes ideas from that while embracing 4E's removal of annoying things like LA and ECL that led to the race/class blends that they had to use then would be awesome.
The Monster Manuals need companion books: Tomes of Terrain Elements. Many of us are accustomed to designed encounters primarily around the antagonists, but 4E encounters demand interesting settings. Traps are good, but I'd also like to see neutral objects or features that spice up the battlefield and encourage more dynamic combat.
Imagine a book filled with terrain elements that borrow from the concept of object-oriented programming. Each inanimate object includes a list of powers, like a monster, but those powers are activated using the combatants' actions. Example: a tavern table. Move action: hop onto the table and gain +2 to all attacks while on the table. Standard action: Strength vs (hard DC), up-end the table, knocking anybody on top into an adjacent square and dealing 1d8 damage. Immediate interrupt: Acrobatics vs (medium DC), land safely in an adjacent square if the table is up-ended beneath you. Up-ended tables provide cover, etc. Even if the players don't immediately catch on to the available powers, they will as soon as the enemies start doing so! This example is relatively mundane and a good DM could probably improvise it (although you could say the same about many monsters), but a book of well-designed more fantastical elements would be awesome.
Working bottom-up, then I want to see a book of battle maps with complementary terrain elements, along with a few suggestions of encounter groups of monsters to populate the room. Finally, some adventures and APs that add world-class fluff, artwork, and production values. (And excellent examples of more structured and dynamic skill challenges.)
Easy: Adventures that
(a) do not feature a single underground complex that's more than 3 rooms in size! Yes, I know the game is called Dungeons & Dragons, but I find the former to be the single most tedious aspect of the game. YMMV, of course.
(b) Combat Encounters that are dramatically appropriate and not just thrown in to eat up valuable session time in order to create the illusion of substance.
I was scanning through the 4E products on RPGNow and I noticed a distinct lack of variety. Just counting non-free prodcuts, there are about 20 different products that just give players a new race to play. That is close to the total number of adventures that appear on the site (including collections of encounters as adventures).
Then we have a large number of books that enhance classes or introduce new ones (about 15-20). Five of them are Adamant's series giving new pacts for warlocks.
There are about 6 books that focus on magic items, but they are all in the "buck-a-batch" series that, while cool and cheap, is hardly substantive.
Monster books are there, but outside of Goodman Games, only Fiery Dragon has a real presence and that's because of the massive Creature Collection. Strange for what I consider one of the main markets for 4E - monster statblocks.
So, what do you want to see third parties publish for 4E?
For me...
1) Monster collections - 4E does allow you to make a monster on the fly easier than in 3E. However, the design still rewards DMs with a wide selection of monsters and monster statblocks to choose from. I really could use these.
2) Artifacts - The changes to artifacts are among the most interesting 4E changes. I am very surprised that a third party hasn't jumped on a 4E book of artifacts. That book would be rich in both fluff and crunch, and set up many campaigns. Even WotC has barely scratched the surface here.
3) Adventures - Goodman has done a decent job here. I have to admit, I am not a huge fan of their adventures. They do the job, but rarely inspire me like works from such companies as Necromancer Games, Fiery Dragon or the like. I really want more choices and variety in adventures.
What about you? What do you want to see done for 4E?
I think Scarrport: City of Secrets is pretty different than most of the stuff on sale at rpgnow right now (Obviously I'm biased).
It's a very good "points of light" style mini setting you can drop into any campaign.
It has a new character class, new gear, hazards,a mini adventure.. lot's of cool stuff.
I'd like to see a farcical comedy adventure produced and a colonization module produced. The former would be more story and skill focused. The latter would be sandbox in style, as the PCs are part of a colonizing group entering a "new world" for the first time. Can the PCs avoid being Roanoke 2?
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
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I did not read all ot he posts as I see it's devolving into more "edition wars" so sorry if any of these have been said prior.
Goodman is doing a bang up job with adventures, but I'd like to see more from people like Necromancer, Judges Guild Fiery Dragon, etc.
I'd also like see a general "magic" book that takes on rituals, magic items and artifacts .
I think there has been a pretty big dearth of Campaign Setting material, unlike with 3.x. I'd like to see some classic style worlds as well as some of the more "variant" settings as well.
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Nothing, really, I guess. With the compendium and builder, I have access to the data on my computer. I can print off the monsters for each encounter, formatting them as I see fit.
With a 3rd party book, I've got stuff outside those two toolsets. That reduces the overall effectiveness for me.
If I were to buy anything, though, It might be a book of dungeon delves made by a 3rd party, still utilizing monsters/tiles from WotC.
A book of artifacts are useful, too, since the artifact info doesn't show up in full on the Compendium or Builder.
__________________ "..Death greets me warm; Now I will just say goodbye.."
I just wanted to drop in and say that Goodman Games is actively working on a number of products that cover some of the suggestions in this thread. I can't go into any more detail than that, but trust me, we pay close attention to these discussions.
BD
__________________ Aeryn "Blackdirge" Rudel Staff Writer Editor-in-Chief, Level Up magazine Goodman Games, Inc. aeryn@goodman-games.com
To be honest, Dungeon Delve does sound like exactly what I am after, but I am loathe to trust WotC's adventure design given what I have read about them. Certainly the free excerpt did nothing to sway me to buy the book. A Level 8 ELITE in an encounter with Level 3 PCs?!?! What on earth is going on there?
Plus, more plot that I fear I would get from that. Basically, what Mustrum_Ridcully said.
err... you mean like Kalarel in KotS? You can use higher level monsters in an encounter as long as you follow the point buy guideline to make an appropriate encounter level.
While many people praise Goodman Games adventures they often have very Grindy high level elite and solo creatures as well...
__________________ 'I am a predator...the predator improves the race...I kill but not out of hate.' Frank Herbert: Emperor God of Dune
The one problem with System/Edition Neutral books I've heard from publishers is that they don't sell as much. So while "Book of Fluff" etc may seem very system specific, it also puts the product out there. And it's filling in the gaps that people seem to find.
Additionally, there can be small nuggets of crunch. Paizo's "Classic Monsters Revisited" had gems of rules scattered throughout. In some entries, they had "Variants" which had spell like abilities or other powers, which had lore attached to it.
I'm looking forward to Necromancer beginning to publish for 4e again (as they are planning to) but I don't know how far off that will be.
All I have been able to find is his 4E "classic" project. While I would be interested to see what he comes up with, this is low on the list of what I want from Necromancer. I want more quality adventures and I want Tome of Horrors 4E!!
__________________ David A. Blizzard
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err... you mean like Kalarel in KotS? You can use higher level monsters in an encounter as long as you follow the point buy guideline to make an appropriate encounter level.
While many people praise Goodman Games adventures they often have very Grindy high level elite and solo creatures as well...
Yeah, you can use higher level monsters against PCs, I just don't think you should.
As you say, the high proportion of higher level elites and solos are the number one reason that contributes towards the grind. I find that is a really lazy way to approach adventure writing. An approach I can easily do myself. I find 4th edition works best when the PCs are outnumbered, even by lower level foes. Elites and Solos (especially higher level ones) actively work against that.
Instead of looking for creative ways to make an encounter harder, the easy way is to stick a high level elite in there. I can do that myself. If I am paying for something, I want it to be substantially better than what I can produce myself. I want it to have cool, evocative fights with plenty of terrain to interact with and a wide range of opponents. I want every battle to be meaningful, avoid stagnating and grind, and advance the plot.
My ideal dungeon would have 2 - 3 encounters (Party level to Party Level +2 or 3), a skill challenge or two and a then the big, dymanic, edge of the seat, pull out all the stops boss battle where the PCs are outnumbered 2-1 (Party level +4 or even 5). Wrap up the whole adventure in a session, then come back next week and deal with the plot hooks the PCs want to follow up and run the next, evocative, interesting adventure.
Do I want I lot? You bet I do! I have high expectations for my gaming dollar these days. If it's not better than I can do in a few minutes with a conversion of one of my (many) 3.5 APs then I'm not really interested sorry.
But give me something that takes my game to another level with a minimum of prep and effort from me, and I will be all over it like white on rice.
1. A new barbarian class w/o the elemental garbage. Something closer to David Howery's revision of the 1e Barbarian from Dragon Magazine.
2. An alternate warlock
3. An alternate sorceror
4. Alternatives to the Paladin's Divine Challenge
5. Alternative rules for Action Points making them more like M&M Hero Points
including incorporating Healing Surges into Action Point uses
6. Alternative rules for milestones
7. Alternative rules for Daily Magic Items
8. Removing the +1/2 level to ability checks
9. HP loss penalties
10. Illusions that don't do damage
11. Alternative rules for Animal Companions
12. Alternative rules for Spirit Companions
13. Alternative rules for familiars
14. New Ritual rules
15. Magic Items that are not boring
16. An equipment book that is not lame as was AV.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
Last edited by Greg K; 10th June 2009 at 01:20 AM..
1. A new barbarian class w/o the elemental garbage. Something closer to David Howery's revision of the 1e Barbarian from Dragon Magazine.
2. An alternate warlock
3. An alternate sorceror
4. Alternatives to the Paladin's Divine Challenge
5. Alternative rules for Action Points making them more like M&M Hero Points
including incorporating Healing Surges into Action Point uses
6. Alternative rules for milestones
7. Alternative rules for Daily Magic Items
8. Removing the +1/2 level to ability checks
9. HP loss penalties
10. Illusions that don't do damage
11. Alternative rules for Animal Companions
12. Alternative rules for Spirit Companions
13. Alternative rules for familiars
14. New Ritual rules
15. Magic Items that are not boring
16. An equipment book that is not lame as was AV.
Any and all of that would quickly see that book thrown from my table.
__________________ "..Death greets me warm; Now I will just say goodbye.."
Any and all of that would quickly see that book thrown from my table.
I don't give a fig about *your* table and what you allow!
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
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