4e / GSL What would you like to see 3rd parties produce for 4E?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, I would be in favor of that, too.

I like adventure paths, but I think too many adventures have too little story and a little too much combat that doesn't propel the story. I think that works okay if you have a long session anyway, but if you play in an online game for 2 or 3 hours at most, it seems just a "combat fest" if it takes 4 encounters until you get to a new plot development.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Rechan

So like Dungeon Delve, but separated into individual delves?

Like dungeon delve, except with more story? Ideally, each encounter should add a new aspect, not: "To reach your destination, you fight 4 encounters". But after each encounter, you learn one or two new important facts that help you achieve the adventure goal. It can still all fit within one "adventuring" day, if need arises.
Like:
1) The PCs find a group of Goblins attacking a caravan. They learn that some Goblins already escaped with the Mayors daughter.
2) The PCs follow the trail and fight the Goblins, freeing the daughter. THe daughter tells them that the Goblins talked about someone paying them for this. They find a letter that shows the mark of a local bandit leader and the Goblins were apparently en route there.
3) The PCs find the bandit lair, but only meet weak resistance. It appears the bandit leader was using the Goblins as a distraction to lure the Mayor into a trap (the mayor would normally hunt down the Goblins himself) and to take over his post.
4) The PCs get to the ambush place, the mayor attacked by a mixed band of goblins and bandits, most of his guards already down.

[Modeus]

IMHO, the gaming community probably resists 4E because of the following:

a) It moved to far into the High Fantasy segment away from the Gritty Fantasy segment.
b) It moved too far into the gaming segment away from the simulationist segment.

Here's how a third party product can remedy the situation:

a) Expand the number of basic moves all characters can take to make the game "kernel" more simulationist. ( Standard action to toss a grappled opponent. Attack simultaneously with two weapons. Shield block. Set spear. )

b) Create rules for social intrigue. Propose a new defense called Intrigue defense based on Int and Cha, generate a new resource like healing surges for interaction and roleplaying purposes. Losers in an intrigue become Dominated by the enemy.

c) Create an option for gritty play. The fastest fix is to enable exploding dice to all damage rolls. Creating an enabling colorful critical hit rules will please told school grognards like me as well.

d) Have products on realms management and mass battles.

I think if we put our heads together we'll have a much better 4e.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Modeus

IMHO, the gaming community probably resists 4E because of the following:

Sorry, but what gaming community is resisting 4e? The GURPS community?

a) Expand the number of basic moves all characters can take to make the game "kernel" more simulationist. ( Standard action to toss a grappled opponent. Attack simultaneously with two weapons. Shield block. Set spear. )

Most "basic" moves can already be covered by page 42 - Why do you need more rules?

b) Create rules for social intrigue. Propose a new defense called Intrigue defense based on Int and Cha, generate a new resource like healing surges for interaction and roleplaying purposes. Losers in an intrigue become Dominated by the enemy.

Why makes you think that this would make D&D more interesting to others?

c) Create an option for gritty play. The fastest fix is to enable exploding dice to all damage rolls. Creating an enabling colorful critical hit rules will please told school grognards like me as well.

Define colorful crits, because last I checked, they were always pretty boring, even in "old-school" D&D.

d) Have products on realms management and mass battles.

Check out Hard Boiled Armies by OBE, I doubt you will see anything better for mass battles in a while.

Realm Management sounds like a good idea though.

[Aberzanzorax]

Better adventures. Goodman is doing a good job, as are a few others, but more and better.

I'm looking forward to Necromancer beginning to publish for 4e again (as they are planning to) but I don't know how far off that will be.

Also, War of the Burning Sky 4e.


Someone mentioned the book of fluff. I love that idea...and it could (would?) be edition neutral. I almost wonder if it already exists (like in the Kobold Ecologies, or even the old dragon magazine ecologies).


Traps! I LOVE 4e traps. I'd say it is my favorite improvement over 3e, in fact...well to clarify, traps were something (the one thing?) I HATED in 3e. Now they feel like encounters rather than "just a roll".


Psionics. That is all.


Full scale battlemaps. Goregous, full color, and either printable or unfoldable. With the use of the grid being so much a part of the game, this would be awesome! Actually, WotC should make every one of their D&Di maps ready to do this, but I digress from the 3pp there.


Settings. Cool, detailed, thematic settings.

[jaerdaph]

Conversion appendices for 3.5e/Pathfinder and True20, either as part of the book or as a Web extra.

[mevers]

Originally Posted by Rechan

So like Dungeon Delve, but separated into individual delves?

Basically, yeah. But done well.

To be honest, Dungeon Delve does sound like exactly what I am after, but I am loathe to trust WotC's adventure design given what I have read about them. Certainly the free excerpt did nothing to sway me to buy the book. A Level 8 ELITE in an encounter with Level 3 PCs?!?! What on earth is going on there?

Plus, more plot that I fear I would get from that. Basically, what Mustrum_Ridcully said.

[Amadeus Windfall]

I'd love to see a big book of GSL-available appropriate monsters converted into PC races, with feats, pseudo-classes á la Spellscared, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies as options to get more monsteryness into your character. Savage Species was probably my favourite 3E book, so something that takes ideas from that while embracing 4E's removal of annoying things like LA and ECL that led to the race/class blends that they had to use then would be awesome.

[Pseudopsyche]

The Monster Manuals need companion books: Tomes of Terrain Elements. Many of us are accustomed to designed encounters primarily around the antagonists, but 4E encounters demand interesting settings. Traps are good, but I'd also like to see neutral objects or features that spice up the battlefield and encourage more dynamic combat.

Imagine a book filled with terrain elements that borrow from the concept of object-oriented programming. Each inanimate object includes a list of powers, like a monster, but those powers are activated using the combatants' actions. Example: a tavern table. Move action: hop onto the table and gain +2 to all attacks while on the table. Standard action: Strength vs (hard DC), up-end the table, knocking anybody on top into an adjacent square and dealing 1d8 damage. Immediate interrupt: Acrobatics vs (medium DC), land safely in an adjacent square if the table is up-ended beneath you. Up-ended tables provide cover, etc. Even if the players don't immediately catch on to the available powers, they will as soon as the enemies start doing so! This example is relatively mundane and a good DM could probably improvise it (although you could say the same about many monsters), but a book of well-designed more fantastical elements would be awesome.

Working bottom-up, then I want to see a book of battle maps with complementary terrain elements, along with a few suggestions of encounter groups of monsters to populate the room. Finally, some adventures and APs that add world-class fluff, artwork, and production values. (And excellent examples of more structured and dynamic skill challenges.)

[HorusZA]

Easy: Adventures that
(a) do not feature a single underground complex that's more than 3 rooms in size! Yes, I know the game is called Dungeons & Dragons, but I find the former to be the single most tedious aspect of the game. YMMV, of course.
(b) Combat Encounters that are dramatically appropriate and not just thrown in to eat up valuable session time in order to create the illusion of substance.

[Drkfathr1]

1. Skill Challenges

2. Class support books with additional powers and options for the existing classes.

3. Adventures linked together in Adventure Path length/style.

[Urizen]

Originally Posted by Glyfair

I was scanning through the 4E products on RPGNow and I noticed a distinct lack of variety. Just counting non-free prodcuts, there are about 20 different products that just give players a new race to play. That is close to the total number of adventures that appear on the site (including collections of encounters as adventures).

Then we have a large number of books that enhance classes or introduce new ones (about 15-20). Five of them are Adamant's series giving new pacts for warlocks.

There are about 6 books that focus on magic items, but they are all in the "buck-a-batch" series that, while cool and cheap, is hardly substantive.

Monster books are there, but outside of Goodman Games, only Fiery Dragon has a real presence and that's because of the massive Creature Collection. Strange for what I consider one of the main markets for 4E - monster statblocks.

So, what do you want to see third parties publish for 4E?

For me...

1) Monster collections - 4E does allow you to make a monster on the fly easier than in 3E. However, the design still rewards DMs with a wide selection of monsters and monster statblocks to choose from. I really could use these.

2) Artifacts - The changes to artifacts are among the most interesting 4E changes. I am very surprised that a third party hasn't jumped on a 4E book of artifacts. That book would be rich in both fluff and crunch, and set up many campaigns. Even WotC has barely scratched the surface here.

3) Adventures - Goodman has done a decent job here. I have to admit, I am not a huge fan of their adventures. They do the job, but rarely inspire me like works from such companies as Necromancer Games, Fiery Dragon or the like. I really want more choices and variety in adventures.

What about you? What do you want to see done for 4E?

I think Scarrport: City of Secrets is pretty different than most of the stuff on sale at rpgnow right now (Obviously I'm biased).

It's a very good "points of light" style mini setting you can drop into any campaign.

It has a new character class, new gear, hazards,a mini adventure.. lot's of cool stuff.

[Mircoles]

Adventures, adventures, adventures and more adventures. Rule books not so much so.

[roguerouge]

I'd like to see a farcical comedy adventure produced and a colonization module produced. The former would be more story and skill focused. The latter would be sandbox in style, as the PCs are part of a colonizing group entering a "new world" for the first time. Can the PCs avoid being Roanoke 2?

[JeffB]

I did not read all ot he posts as I see it's devolving into more "edition wars" so sorry if any of these have been said prior.

Goodman is doing a bang up job with adventures, but I'd like to see more from people like Necromancer, Judges Guild Fiery Dragon, etc.

I'd also like see a general "magic" book that takes on rituals, magic items and artifacts .

I think there has been a pretty big dearth of Campaign Setting material, unlike with 3.x. I'd like to see some classic style worlds as well as some of the more "variant" settings as well.