General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Hundreds of At-Will powers. THOUSANDS of 'em. Far as the eye can see.
Also, something along the lines of Paizo's alternative crit rules, maybe. Replacing the extra damage from Implements/Weapons to something else. Although I have no clue how one would do this, so...yeah.
All I have been able to find is his 4E "classic" project. While I would be interested to see what he comes up with, this is low on the list of what I want from Necromancer. I want more quality adventures and I want Tome of Horrors 4E!!
And that looks fairly dead. The forum was off to a great start, but lack of direction and word from Orcus & co made it die out quite fast (just IMO). Sadly. It was an interesting thought.
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3) Book of Fluff. That's right. Pick a monster and fluff it up. Provide the stuff that many is missing from the MM. Either with a "Classic X Revisited" ten page spread, or just 2-3 pages per monster. Considering the amount of people that complain about this, it should sell like hot cakes.
This may have been mentioned already, but:
Per the GSL, every single entry would have to be clearly indicated as applicable only to an exotic subspecies or other population, to avoid confusion with any official WotC "fluff".
Considering the limited 4E-specific appeal, the 4E-specific limitations might be more a marketing hindrance than a help. There are already many bestiaries out there; a trip to the library (or online search) should offer plenty of inspiration for any fantasy game!
4) PDF How-to guide to My Prefered Gaming Style in 4e. You want Simulationism? What about an economy? You want the martial power source to make sense? You want magical items that aren't too watered down? Many out there like X of 4e, but hate Y. A game company can easily pick something that 4e doesn't deliver on, and run the system through the screws mechanically to balance out the material for those DMs who want to do X in 4e.
One thing to remember is that some such material, if it is fully to satisfy the target audience, might not be very compatible with standard 4E -- or with any other particular variant. It might have to be balanced on its own terms. (That's no surprise perhaps to those acquainted with the "splat books" of previous editions.)
Last edited by Ariosto; 10th June 2009 at 08:10 AM..
How about a book of "enchanted features"? This would include rituals, items, creatures and places. They would be intended not as dime-a-dozen additions to a campaign but as unique or at least very rare (although of course it's up to the DM). The idea is that each could serve as the focus of an adventure or several. The exemplary "fluff" would be significant, but as much as possible assume the setting implications of "baseline" 4E (first three books) for ease of adaptation to one's own campaign.
The DM would be provided options from which to choose the true nature of each "feature", so that even without "filing off the serial numbers" it should retain some mystery -- even to players who have themselves read the book or otherwise encountered it. Variations for level appropriateness would also be included.
Per the GSL, every single entry would have to be clearly indicated as applicable only to an exotic subspecies or other population, to avoid confusion with any official WotC "fluff".
Considering the limited 4E-specific appeal, the 4E-specific limitations might be more a marketing hindrance than a help. There are already many bestiaries out there; a trip to the library (or online search) should offer plenty of inspiration for any fantasy game!
As long as you don't contradict what is already there I don't see a problem. It could be a problem if WotC decides to do a creature write up of their own, but expanding on the fluff entries and not replacing them - I believe - is allowed by the GSL.
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
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It's a somewhat interesting question to ask what I'd want to see third parties do with 4e, because the unstated corollary is that I either think WotC wouldn't make that product, or a 3rd party would do it a lot better. Because if you really want to see something, think WotC will do it, and WotC will do it well, it's a lot better for WotC to do it -- better distribution, probably better production values, and if it's character options, it'll get D&Di/Character Builder support. Which is why I'm kind of drawing a blank. Adventures are probably the thing that works best without a D&Di link, though.
As long as you don't contradict what is already there I don't see a problem.
Yeah, maybe. But considering how little is there relative to what's projected for the project, I would be wary of stepping on the toes of WotC by contradicting what they might want to define in the future. They can revoke the license at any time, if I understand correctly.
What I would like to see are short (3 - 4 encounters) self contained adventures that I can easily drop into an existing campaign (either because they look cool, or my PCs need a bit more XP). Even better if they leave a few plot hooks hanging that I can spin into a larger part of the campaign if the PCs run with them.
Price them at about 2 - 3 bucks, and I would snap them up by the bucket load.
Well as far as supplements go, there's plenty of adventures and class specific books out there. And I prefer to get my monsters from adventure supplements, so the encounters are matched accordingly with terrain, tactics, etc. Personally I never got much out of race-specific books.
I think the most noticable shortage is in, for the lack of a better word, sourcebooks. I'd like to see more material that is easily ported into any campaign that is not an adventure or statblock.
Most especially supplements for different climates and genres. I haven't run into a solid military-focused supplement for 4E, which is a pity because the gameplay is excellent for tactical combat. It would be awesome to have stuff like heroes of horror and cityscape available in 4E form. Naval/aerial combat supplements, planar adventuring guides, climatic sourcebooks, that sort of thing.
The next big gap is in DM building materials. The stronghold builders guidebook was huge in my camapigns, and I still use that 2e world builder's guidebook. It would be nice to see an update to those.
Lastly, I'd like to see more mega-campaigns. I'm talking about stuff that takes you 1-30. Even though I've never finished such a campaign before, they are still great material to read and mine for your own campaign ideas. However this would be a much lower priority than the previously 2 mentioned topics.
Also, I'd like to see more material that is specialized in either crunch or fluff. Both are important, but too often a good sourcebook is ruined because they try to fit everything into the limited pagecount and everything ends up lukewarm. (Which is my main issue with WOTC related supplements...and the main reason I turn to 3rd party sources)
Most especially supplements for different climates and genres. I haven't run into a solid military-focused supplement for 4E, which is a pity because the gameplay is excellent for tactical combat.
A detailed examination of questions to ask & answer when taking things from a “character” to “military” scale of conflict.
Details on how to build your own military forces using tools you already have at your disposal.
A sample military tradition to use as a basis for player armies.
Options for making the fighting feel gritty and threatening.
Seven military force “feature powers”
Six ways to integrate your game’s player characters into battlefield action
Three sample forces: The Doomkeepers, the Laughing Skull Brotherhood, and the Corpse-Child Army.
Invasion! A fully-detailed military encounter, where the players take on the roles of city watch garrisons charged with defending their city against an invading force. Invasion! Includes five enemy armies for your players to repel, and a map of the city and its surroundings, broken into nine 8″x6″ printable map tiles.
Counters and power cards for streamlining your Hard Boiled Armies experience.
(Warning, I don't own this product, and cannot speak for its quality.)
Quote:
It would be awesome to have stuff like heroes of horror and cityscape available in 4E form. Naval/aerial combat supplements, planar adventuring guides, climatic sourcebooks, that sort of thing.
The next big gap is in DM building materials.
I agree. I would definitely buy several of these. I liked Sandstorm a whole lot, and badly wanted WotC to publish a Jungle/Swamp book and Heroes of Intrigue, but they never did. I suspect the "Plane Below" sourcebook about the Elemental Chaos will discuss planar adventures, but not as much as would be nice or suit our purposes.
I would eat up a book on Intrigue/Espionage for 4e, but doubt that would sell enough for 4e to be worth it for a publisher.
Quote:
Lastly, I'd like to see more mega-campaigns. I'm talking about stuff that takes you 1-30. Even though I've never finished such a campaign before, they are still great material to read and mine for your own campaign ideas. However this would be a much lower priority than the previously 2 mentioned topics.
I started a thread asking why there weren't any Adventure Paths 4e (which is the term for the "Take you all the way to the top" linked adventures), and the response was pretty much: they're hard to do. Especially by small companies like most 3rd party publishers.
Stuff that pushes the boundaries of what the system can do. It's a bit early in the edition cycle for products like this, but I'd prefer to see a product that really expands what the system can do.
__________________ Jeffrey J. Visgaitis
Creative Director The Inner Circle
I just wanted to drop in and say that Goodman Games is actively working on a number of products that cover some of the suggestions in this thread. I can't go into any more detail than that, but trust me, we pay close attention to these discussions.
BD
You know, I'm trying to think of something to write for Level Up! and this thread doesn't help. A lot of what is asked for here would require very BIG word counts.
4E is very home-brew friendly for creating your own adventures, but there are some areas it can be expanded easily by a 3PP that would enable the do-it-yourself DM:
Reference Books!
Book of traps
Book of terrain and hazards
Pre-made encounter groupings that fit the 4E DMG suggestions
Encounter tables... throwbacks to previous editions
Rogues Gallery / Book of NPC's
I wouldn't mind seeing a higher quality adventure path than what WOTC is putting out. I would burst with joy if it was ever announced that Whiterock Castle would be converted to 4E or a similar Goodman Games megadungeon. And I think there is always room for more alternate campaign settings... Lovecraftian Horror, Steampunk, Historical Fantasy, etc.
Personally not interested in 3PP character options, WOTC is already overwhelming us with new PHB's, player guides, and the DDI beatdown.
Pre-made encounter groupings that fit the 4E DMG suggestions
Encounter tables... throwbacks to previous editions
Rogues Gallery / Book of NPC's
Do these hit the spot for others?
I can sort of see the last one, because I know it has sold before and can indeed be quite useful -- at least in the old AD&D format. I wonder how much demand there really is nowadays, especially without a tie-in to a popular, trademarked setting.
The others seem to me more likely to have wide appeal in the context of a scenario. Is 4E really so rules-heavy as to make a rules-set-specific book of traps a good seller? How much really is there to say about generic terrain and hazards? How much use are arbitrary encounter groupings and encounter tables? (If you want throwbacks to previous editions, you can download, e.g., Kellri's CDD#4_encounters.pdf for free.)
I'd have to say either adventures (I know, everyone says it) or something unique that WotC just isn't interested in doing.
For adventures, I have been seriously disappointed with WotC's adventures, to the point where I'm barely looking at Dungeon anymore, let alone picking up their print products. I want a well written adventure that doesn't just come down to an excuse for several battles. I have a subscription to Burning Sky 4E, but I want more! Give me a 4E Larin Karr or Tomb of Abysthor and I'm literally set for years of gaming.
I'd also be interested in seeing things that WotC isn't really interested in doing. There's a lot of complaint that core 4E is all about combat, so give me a product I can bolt onto my game that's social or wilderness or running a business or an empire. Give me something that won't invalidate character builder creations, but will take the characters in unique ways.
One product I'd love to see (and have been sort of working on) would ba a big "book of skill challenges". Want to run a chase? Here's how. Looking for a forgotten temple in the swamp? Here you go. That sort of thing would be an immediate purchase for me.
--Steve
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