4e / GSL What would you like to see 3rd parties produce for 4E?

[Glyfair]

Edit: I was hoping I wouldn't have to say this. If you aren't interested in 4E, please don't post how you want something that isn't for 4E. Start a thread about what 4e products could do to make them interesting for you, if you need to.

Please.


I was scanning through the 4E products on RPGNow and I noticed a distinct lack of variety. Just counting non-free prodcuts, there are about 20 different products that just give players a new race to play. That is close to the total number of adventures that appear on the site (including collections of encounters as adventures).

Then we have a large number of books that enhance classes or introduce new ones (about 15-20). Five of them are Adamant's series giving new pacts for warlocks.

There are about 6 books that focus on magic items, but they are all in the "buck-a-batch" series that, while cool and cheap, is hardly substantive.

Monster books are there, but outside of Goodman Games, only Fiery Dragon has a real presence and that's because of the massive Creature Collection. Strange for what I consider one of the main markets for 4E - monster statblocks.

So, what do you want to see third parties publish for 4E?

For me...

1) Monster collections - 4E does allow you to make a monster on the fly easier than in 3E. However, the design still rewards DMs with a wide selection of monsters and monster statblocks to choose from. I really could use these.

2) Artifacts - The changes to artifacts are among the most interesting 4E changes. I am very surprised that a third party hasn't jumped on a 4E book of artifacts. That book would be rich in both fluff and crunch, and set up many campaigns. Even WotC has barely scratched the surface here.

3) Adventures - Goodman has done a decent job here. I have to admit, I am not a huge fan of their adventures. They do the job, but rarely inspire me like works from such companies as Necromancer Games, Fiery Dragon or the like. I really want more choices and variety in adventures.

What about you? What do you want to see done for 4E?

[fireinthedust]

1) Traps. I love them, especially well-designed ones that make for interesting encounters. I have this one where the PCs set themselves up by *not* doing something before they opt to do something, then fight a monster.
Some well-designed, well presented 4e traps. Classic ones, that I can fit into any dungeon anywhere. give me a level, give me the kind of hallway or room, and let it go. Heck, even conundrums. My players love them, and it beats *only* combat sessions with diplomacy challenges.


2) Proper presentation: art, and good art. Take the 3e "Pools of Radience: Myth Drannor" adventure tie-in by Skip Williams, somewhat-related to the game (which I never played). The adventure was cool and had useful stuff. The Art, however, was also fabulous: the black and white inks were done by someone who I believe did some Tome of Horrors stuff, and eventually drew for Hellboy.


3) Battle maps that look good. Heck, I'd like a whole dungeon on one map, or series of maps. However, it needs to be cool, and double-sided. I can use these throughout edition changes.

[Jack99]

I want 2 things atm from the 3PP's

1) Innovative design and expansion of certain rules (One Bad Egg does this extremely well, but it wouldn't hurt to have more than one company doing it)

2) Adventures (Unlike you, I like DCC's quite a bit, but I would also like to see other types of adventures.

When that is said, I sure as heck wouldnt mind a "book of artifacts" or a "book of cool encounters" or a campaign setting or two more.

[Mistwell]

I want more and better adventures.

I am hoping Burning Sky is as awesome as it seems.

[Jan van Leyden]

With the whole PoL concept touted by WotC, I'd love to see some combined packages:

Describe a Point of Light with interesting roleplaying opportunities, its dark surroundings and include an adventure which directly relates to this setting. The adventure needs not be limited to the typical level 1 stuff. The PoL concepts allows for the characters to reach a location for the first time and have to explore it/learn about it.

An ambitious publisher could, of course, also include meta-information (foreshadowing) hinting at other products in this series.

[Rechan]

I actually am against more adventures/monster books, etc. I think we need more of the little stuff, and the things that are missing in terms of "What can you find out there?"

1) Book of Terrain Features. Just open up the DMG to the terrain features section, and come up with mundane and fantastic terrain. Anything you can drop into an encounter to just make the encounter more intriguing.

2) Book of Locations I: Encounter Locations. This is an elaborate room or area with lots of mechanics to it. Like a clockwork room with rules governing how it works that can be exploited, or used, that effect the place every round. Being swallowed by a great beast, and fighting the contents of its (still moving) last meal. Designs of cool areas that DMs can put their monsters in and send their PCs to. We have buckets of monsters, but not enough cool places to put them.

Book of Locations II: Fantasy Locales. This is different from the above in that it's not limited to just a place for fighting. These are sites where you might meet a friendly NPC, or explore. Places that evoke a sense of wonder, or get your juices flowing. A magical grotto with crystaline flowers. A river that flows straight up. Each one gets a trio of adventure seeds "Here's why your PCs could come here".

3) Book of Fluff. That's right. Pick a monster and fluff it up. Provide the stuff that many is missing from the MM. Either with a "Classic X Revisited" ten page spread, or just 2-3 pages per monster. Considering the amount of people that complain about this, it should sell like hot cakes.

4) PDF How-to guide to My Prefered Gaming Style in 4e. You want Simulationism? What about an economy? You want the martial power source to make sense? You want magical items that aren't too watered down? Many out there like X of 4e, but hate Y. A game company can easily pick something that 4e doesn't deliver on, and run the system through the screws mechanically to balance out the material for those DMs who want to do X in 4e.

Once some of those hit the market, then I'd like to see:

5) Adventure Paths. Preferably one path per tier.

[Fallen Seraph]

It is something I would like to see WoTC do as well (mainly since be in Character Builder and Compendium). But Setting Builder books. So have 3rd party companies make books showcasing mechanics, plot hooks, etc. for 4e that take it into different settings such as Steampunk, Pseudoscience, Horror, Dieselpunk, etc.

Really that is overall my one really big want for books in general for 4e (PHB3 is getting Psionics my other big want). Plus firearms would be something that could be done in the Setting Builder books.

Oh and a setting book for Bas-Lag for 4e. I know Adamant Entertainment is making a roleplaying game for it. But I don't think they have released any info on what system they are using (or their own), but if they made it for 4e I would buy it in a instant (though I still plan on buying it anyways :P)

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I actually am against more adventures/monster books, etc. I think we need more of the little stuff, and the things that are missing in terms of "What can you find out there?"

Interesting ideas. However, I find the "little stuff" is often too niche for me. For example, Adamant Entertainment's series of warlock pacts seems like I might see one I might buy but 8-10 become a blur I ignore.

1) Book of Terrain Features. Just open up the DMG to the terrain features section, and come up with mundane and fantastic terrain. Anything you can drop into an encounter to just make the encounter more intriguing.

I would like this as a largish product. Put in a few dungeon tile (say a box set with a booklet) and that would fit my need.

2) Book of Locations I: Encounter Locations. This is an elaborate room or area with lots of mechanics to it. Like a clockwork room with rules governing how it works that can be exploited, or used, that effect the place every round. Being swallowed by a great beast, and fighting the contents of its (still moving) last meal. Designs of cool areas that DMs can put their monsters in and send their PCs to. We have buckets of monsters, but not enough cool places to put them.

I am not sure how I would feel about this. It sounds good to have a map and an encounter area. Too feel it was worth the money, it would need to be something I'd use over and over (say the bell tower in the center of my major city).

4) PDF How-to guide to My Prefered Gaming Style in 4e. You want Simulationism? What about an economy? You want the martial power source to make sense? You want magical items that aren't too watered down? Many out there like X of 4e, but hate Y. A game company can easily pick something that 4e doesn't deliver on, and run the system through the screws mechanically to balance out the material for those DMs who want to do X in 4e.

I like this idea. However, it sounds like more of a magazine article. In fact, I think a great magazine could be built just on the concepts you list here. I'd pick up at least an issue or two at my FLGS to try it outx

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph

Oh and a setting book for Bas-Lag for 4e. I know Adamant Entertainment is making a roleplaying game for it. But I don't think they have released any info on what system they are using (or their own), but if they made it for 4e I would buy it in a instant (though I still plan on buying it anyways :P)

I think I can safely say no 3rd party will publish a licensed setting under the GSL. Licenses are expensive, and tying it to a system that can get yanked away from you by another company with little notice isn't something any company will risk.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Glyfair

Interesting ideas. However, I find the "little stuff" is often too niche for me. For example, Adamant Entertainment's series of warlock pacts seems like I might see one I might buy but 8-10 become a blur I ignore.

Hey, this thread is about what "You" (the poster) want, not what Glyfair won't buy from the suggestions.

I posted to offer something different from "Adventures/Mechanics" because what I want is story elements, and to stop people from complaining that "4e lacks fluff/roleplaying/simulation".

You all ready posted what you wanted, why pick apart mine?

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Hey, this thread is about what "You" (the poster) want, not what Glyfair won't buy from the suggestions.

I posted to offer something different from "Adventures/Mechanics" because what I want is story elements, and to stop people from complaining that "4e lacks fluff/roleplaying/simulation".

You all ready posted what you wanted, why pick apart mine?

Sorry, what I was trying to do was point out some stuff I would like to see which was a variation on yours. Then I realized it would be a great magazine, or something similar (a magazine with maps and tiles in each issue...I wonder how it could function).

I edited it for better focus (which ended up messing the original up horribly...ah, well).

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'd like to see two of the following, by which I mean that there are probably many things I would like to see besides these two things:

1. A series of Al-Quadim/Oriental Adventure & Wuxia/Horror books that give you adventures, flavor, and side rules for different cultures and genres for adventuring using DnD
2. A series of DM as Director tools: The Action DM's Handbook, Montage Rules, and other tools to help pacing and play with the game itself

[Shemeska]

Fluff-heavy planar material that doesn't use the core PoL planes, or the redefined nature of many planar creatures (doesn't have to be a reversion to prior ideas either, as I could strip-mine ideas and concepts happily from products that go their own, different route entirely). I wouldn't mind working on a 4e planar product (ruleset and mechanics are often pretty superfluous to me) so long as I wasn't constrained to some of the assumptions the default PoL rather strictly defines.

Of course, I'm not sure how far the GSL would allow you to stray from how 4e defined some planar creatures (above and beyond those which aren't open content to use at all).

[mevers]

What I would like to see are short (3 - 4 encounters) self contained adventures that I can easily drop into an existing campaign (either because they look cool, or my PCs need a bit more XP). Even better if they leave a few plot hooks hanging that I can spin into a larger part of the campaign if the PCs run with them.

Price them at about 2 - 3 bucks, and I would snap them up by the bucket load.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by mevers

What I would like to see are short (3 - 4 encounters) self contained adventures that I can easily drop into an existing campaign (either because they look cool, or my PCs need a bit more XP). Even better if they leave a few plot hooks hanging that I can spin into a larger part of the campaign if the PCs run with them.

Price them at about 2 - 3 bucks, and I would snap them up by the bucket load.

So like Dungeon Delve, but separated into individual delves?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, I would be in favor of that, too.

I like adventure paths, but I think too many adventures have too little story and a little too much combat that doesn't propel the story. I think that works okay if you have a long session anyway, but if you play in an online game for 2 or 3 hours at most, it seems just a "combat fest" if it takes 4 encounters until you get to a new plot development.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Rechan

So like Dungeon Delve, but separated into individual delves?

Like dungeon delve, except with more story? Ideally, each encounter should add a new aspect, not: "To reach your destination, you fight 4 encounters". But after each encounter, you learn one or two new important facts that help you achieve the adventure goal. It can still all fit within one "adventuring" day, if need arises.
Like:
1) The PCs find a group of Goblins attacking a caravan. They learn that some Goblins already escaped with the Mayors daughter.
2) The PCs follow the trail and fight the Goblins, freeing the daughter. THe daughter tells them that the Goblins talked about someone paying them for this. They find a letter that shows the mark of a local bandit leader and the Goblins were apparently en route there.
3) The PCs find the bandit lair, but only meet weak resistance. It appears the bandit leader was using the Goblins as a distraction to lure the Mayor into a trap (the mayor would normally hunt down the Goblins himself) and to take over his post.
4) The PCs get to the ambush place, the mayor attacked by a mixed band of goblins and bandits, most of his guards already down.

[Modeus]

IMHO, the gaming community probably resists 4E because of the following:

a) It moved to far into the High Fantasy segment away from the Gritty Fantasy segment.
b) It moved too far into the gaming segment away from the simulationist segment.

Here's how a third party product can remedy the situation:

a) Expand the number of basic moves all characters can take to make the game "kernel" more simulationist. ( Standard action to toss a grappled opponent. Attack simultaneously with two weapons. Shield block. Set spear. )

b) Create rules for social intrigue. Propose a new defense called Intrigue defense based on Int and Cha, generate a new resource like healing surges for interaction and roleplaying purposes. Losers in an intrigue become Dominated by the enemy.

c) Create an option for gritty play. The fastest fix is to enable exploding dice to all damage rolls. Creating an enabling colorful critical hit rules will please told school grognards like me as well.

d) Have products on realms management and mass battles.

I think if we put our heads together we'll have a much better 4e.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Modeus

IMHO, the gaming community probably resists 4E because of the following:

Sorry, but what gaming community is resisting 4e? The GURPS community?

a) Expand the number of basic moves all characters can take to make the game "kernel" more simulationist. ( Standard action to toss a grappled opponent. Attack simultaneously with two weapons. Shield block. Set spear. )

Most "basic" moves can already be covered by page 42 - Why do you need more rules?

b) Create rules for social intrigue. Propose a new defense called Intrigue defense based on Int and Cha, generate a new resource like healing surges for interaction and roleplaying purposes. Losers in an intrigue become Dominated by the enemy.

Why makes you think that this would make D&D more interesting to others?

c) Create an option for gritty play. The fastest fix is to enable exploding dice to all damage rolls. Creating an enabling colorful critical hit rules will please told school grognards like me as well.

Define colorful crits, because last I checked, they were always pretty boring, even in "old-school" D&D.

d) Have products on realms management and mass battles.

Check out Hard Boiled Armies by OBE, I doubt you will see anything better for mass battles in a while.

Realm Management sounds like a good idea though.

[Aberzanzorax]

Better adventures. Goodman is doing a good job, as are a few others, but more and better.

I'm looking forward to Necromancer beginning to publish for 4e again (as they are planning to) but I don't know how far off that will be.

Also, War of the Burning Sky 4e.


Someone mentioned the book of fluff. I love that idea...and it could (would?) be edition neutral. I almost wonder if it already exists (like in the Kobold Ecologies, or even the old dragon magazine ecologies).


Traps! I LOVE 4e traps. I'd say it is my favorite improvement over 3e, in fact...well to clarify, traps were something (the one thing?) I HATED in 3e. Now they feel like encounters rather than "just a roll".


Psionics. That is all.


Full scale battlemaps. Goregous, full color, and either printable or unfoldable. With the use of the grid being so much a part of the game, this would be awesome! Actually, WotC should make every one of their D&Di maps ready to do this, but I digress from the 3pp there.


Settings. Cool, detailed, thematic settings.