General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
It could be Darklance. Or maybe, Dragon Sun. Two birds, one stone.
"Grim-n-gritty, post-apocalyptic enslaved desert world collides with high fantasy heroics world brimming with wacky comic relief sidekick races. Hilarity ensues."
__________________ "They've taken all the fun out of slaying things and stealing treasure!" - Bolt
Copy, paste and redesign your way to your own ideal custom game with the Swords & Wizardry.doc file. Renovate the elf, build a rogue or thief, and make all your favourite rules and splat core.
Last edited by rounser; 15th June 2009 at 10:02 AM..
It could be Darklance. Or maybe, Dragon Sun. Two birds, one stone.
"Grim-n-gritty, post-apocalyptic enslaved desert world collides with high fantasy heroics world brimming with wacky comic relief sidekick races. Hilarity ensues."
Over on the WotC boards someone posted an amusing idea of introducing Dark Sun as a form of post-apocalyptic Dragonlance, based on the idea that Dragonlance had one world-shattering event too many and the gods gave up on it, leading into a slide towards destruction. I think something like that would actually be able to get me into playing in the Dragonlance setting.
Seriously though, the only part of Dragonlance that I ever found interesting was the original novel trilogy, and even then I think it worked better as a single story than as a game setting. If WotC wants to release that setting for 4E, I think they really need to wind the clock back to those books, or simply reboot it entirely to create a situation resembling the war of the lance that allows more PC involvement. I mean, just like Eberron works because it has a central theme built on the threat of a resurgence of the Last War, Dragonlance could work by being a setting built around letting the PCs participate in the epic struggle between armies of good and evil in the War of the Lance. It is just about the only thing the setting has going for it.
Last edited by TwinBahamut; 15th June 2009 at 10:13 AM..
Oh, well, perhaps thay make something interesting for the PG. The setting is bland enough so that it could be used in about any other generic fantasy setting.
Over on the WotC boards someone posted an amusing idea of introducing Dark Sun as a form of post-apocalyptic Dragonlance, based on the idea that Dragonlance had one world-shattering event too many and the gods gave up on it, leading into a slide towards destruction. I think something like that would actually be able to get me into playing in the Dragonlance setting.
Ha, I posited something like that once. Of course, that was back in the 2E days before Dragonlance went nuts with the apocalyptic remodelings, so my theory was that Dark Sun was the final outcome of the "Raistlin kills all the gods" timeline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinBahamut
If WotC wants to release that setting for 4E, I think they really need to wind the clock back to those books, or simply reboot it entirely to create a situation resembling the war of the lance that allows more PC involvement.
I think the latter is the more probable outcome. Turning the clock back would enable them to re-release the original module series, of course... but how do you run a module series when 80% of the gaming community has already read the plot in novel form?
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
I have to agree...Dragonlance reads better than it plays..
I've seen this sentiment over and over on this thread, and I have to ask if this is based on the original modules or not. For the critics who say it's a better novel world, have you given the 3.5 version a shot? Is it fear of messing with continuity that's holding some back?
I've not found it hard to play at all. In fact, I find it more enjoyable to play than most worlds. Now I understand that DL isn't for everyone, but why is this such a strong sentiment?
1) The setting's all about the heroes and events in the novels, therefore my PCs and what they do will be irrelevant, and eventually overwhelmed by canon events taking place in those novels.
2) The original Dragonlance modules are a railroad, and are basically playing out the novels (nevermind that the modules predate the novels). See point 1.
I don't agree entirely, but that seems to be the concensus.
__________________ "They've taken all the fun out of slaying things and stealing treasure!" - Bolt
Copy, paste and redesign your way to your own ideal custom game with the Swords & Wizardry.doc file. Renovate the elf, build a rogue or thief, and make all your favourite rules and splat core.
I'd imagine Dark Sun is probably under consideration. It has a somewhat strong fan base, and it's usually counted among the good 2e settings. The only problem is trying to shoehorn core 4e classes and races into the DS setting; they tried that with the 3.5 stuff in Dragon, and it didn't go over well at all. If they're just doing limited support for setting with a player's guide, a DM guide and a module, and just continuing support through DDI, there shouldn't be any reason for them to not cut some of the core stuff out. It's better to present that stuff as options than say, "You have to use everything from this book if you want to use anything".
In many ways, I think 4E is a better fit for Dark Sun than 3E or even 2E were. Consider that 4E has:
Stripped alignment mechanics from the game, so there are no longer classes that are required to be exemplars of virtue
Changed the low-level "create food and drink"-type spells to rituals with a component cost, so they can't sustain a party indefinitely
Generally reduced the ability of spellcasters to negate environmental hazards
Made 1st-level characters tough and durable (the original Dark Sun boxed set started everyone at level 3 to achieve this)
Introduced a PC race, the dragonborn, which are dead ringers for the Dark Sun dray
Reduced magic item dependence, and made it possible to reduce it even further with simple adjustments
Created the epic destiny system, which is a perfect fit for dragon (and avangion, if we must have avangions) metamorphosis
There really is very little in the 4E core books that would not fit quite well in Dark Sun - unless you adopt a purist, "If it wasn't in the original boxed set it is anathema and must be burned at the stake*!" attitude. Which is sadly common, but those people won't be happy with any re-release of an old setting.
I admit that tieflings and devas would require a little creativity. Still, tieflings could be explained as the result of years of exposure to defiling magic, and devas with their reincarnation shtick could work quite well as lonely idealists who remember the world as it was and keep trying to turn back the clock; they already have a kind of doomed nobility thing going on, which is the only kind of nobility Dark Sun's got.
Frankly, Dark Sun does not need to change all that much to fit the new D&D, because the new D&D has already changed to fit Dark Sun.
*Of course, I am only speaking of 4E stuff here. Stuff from the novels and the revised boxed set is anathema and should be burned at the stake. Except dragon metamorphosis, that bit was cool, once you took out all the garbage about Rajaat.
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
Last edited by Dausuul; 15th June 2009 at 03:25 PM..
Of course, I am only speaking of 4E stuff here. Stuff from the novels and the revised boxed set is anathema and should be burned at the stake. Except dragon metamorphosis, that bit was cool, once you took out all the garbage about Rajaat.
lol, agreed 100 and 1 %!!
Having established a wonderously baroque, different setting of tyranny, brutality and survival, which was awesome and completley un-like all the "Tolkein-esque" stuff, TSR turned around and made Tyr a DEMOCRACY WTH?!...
All to fit the novels which were decidedly iffy (nice flavour bakcgorund etc, but ruined the mystery and the Cleansing war precluded DM's use of many creatures etc) , omg...that was so lame, so I've always stuck with the 1st boxed set.
Same problem with Draognlance: shoe horning, driving the setting to novels, then again, Dragonlance modules were just spin offs, and frankly suck sweaty orc armpits!
(I had three of the "Dragons of Somehting or Other" modules, fyi)
At least the novels were good (some of them anyway)
So I do hope they kick the fans in the jimmy and bring out Dark Sun, or Spelljammer or Planescape, anything but Dragonlance or Greyhawk, 'cause both of them don't really offer anything very different or "fun".
Dragonlance, what's different: twoers of high sorcery/split magic users, and Raisitlin's funky eyes :P Oh and tinker gonmes, and too many folk seem to have forgtten D&D is about FUN and have thus retconned gnomes into being boring. Gnomes, to me, are most fun when juggling nitroglycerine and Fireballs, k?
Another issue that is important to me, is that the old settings had very defined art/styles, which was vital for their "feel".
Last edited by Silverblade The Ench; 15th June 2009 at 03:23 PM..
Another issue that is important to me, is that the old settings had very defined art/styles, which was vital for their "feel".
Well, there's a clue we could look for. If we hear that someone from WotC has been talking to Brom or Larry Elmore, we'll know which setting to expect.
(Actually, Brom would only narrow it down to Dark Sun or Planescape, since he established the visual styles of both. And Larry Elmore is all over the place in old-school D&D. But if it's between Dark Sun and Dragonlance, there you are.)
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
Last edited by Dausuul; 15th June 2009 at 03:43 PM..
1) The setting's all about the heroes and events in the novels, therefore my PCs and what they do will be irrelevant, and eventually overwhelmed by canon events taking place in those novels.
2) The original Dragonlance modules are a railroad, and are basically playing out the novels (nevermind that the modules predate the novels). See point 1.
I don't agree entirely, but that seems to be the concensus.
I think you're spot on with the general consensus, but I don't agree with it. The same thing can be said about Star Wars and SWSE has been a great success and can be quite fun to play.
Assuming DL is the next setting, I'm hoping they move the timeline forward to a point where the events of the Chronicles and Twins are distant memory (maybe even legend) and create a sandbox for new heroes. Maybe the novels alaready did this, but I never read anything past the first two series (which I loved).
__________________
“It only surprised me up until around 1977, ... I had thought we were going to have a considerable audience of gamers and science fiction and fantasy fans. I thought easily with those we'd have 50,000 or more [buyers], but when people began to write me [with questions] about what fantasy books to read, and I saw the wide range of both younger and older people who were attracted to the game, I understood that it was reaching a deeper chord, something deep within us.” – E. Gary Gygax (July 27, 1938 – March 4, 2008)
*filling out his Dragonlance form* After reading more of this tread I still don’t think it is DL. It is too easy… The Rouse has you all hoodwinked. (If it is it damn well better be a reboot)
edit: And Cam's post below this one is an perfect example of why DL is not the next setting.
__________________
Formally know as Borc Killer.
Last edited by ki11erDM; 15th June 2009 at 06:26 PM..
I see a great deal of "I don't know what they did with DL in 3.5" or "I never read past the first novels" or "I have no idea what DL is other than what people tell me."
MWP's Dragonlance products can still be found, often cheap (since they're 3.5) and there's no shortage of access to Dragonlance novels in bookstores and online stores. Margaret and Tracy are completing the three-part Lost Chronicles series this year in time for the 25th Anniversary (which is 2009, believe it or not) and these "fill in the gaps" between the original trilogy. There are new and exciting novels set in the current era, after the War of Souls, and there's a "visit interesting periods of Dragonlance history" series called the Anvil of Time which I kicked off with The Sellsword.
If you want to explore the world more, or have any interest in it, or simply don't know what's been going on for the past quarter century, you could do much worse than check these things out.
I've seen this sentiment over and over on this thread, and I have to ask if this is based on the original modules or not. For the critics who say it's a better novel world, have you given the 3.5 version a shot? Is it fear of messing with continuity that's holding some back?
I tried 3.5...I had the same problems as when I played in 2e...great world lots of fluff, fun ideas... kenders being played as kleptos, and when I dislike them in game I get called out by EVERY NPC becuse they are sooo cute...followed by tinkerer gnomes that make every other scean into jokes...
however we did use the mystic class for our other games
Quote:
I've not found it hard to play at all. In fact, I find it more enjoyable to play than most worlds.
have you played ebberon...or Birthright if you go back enough...
Quote:
Now I understand that DL isn't for everyone, but why is this such a strong sentiment?
again I like the world...just not for playing in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rounser
1) The setting's all about the heroes and events in the novels, therefore my PCs and what they do will be irrelevant, and eventually overwhelmed by canon events taking place in those novels.
this seamed like a much smaller problem becuse unlike the realms there were only a few heros stated...so you could adventure int he aftermath
Quote:
2) The original Dragonlance modules are a railroad, and are basically playing out the novels (nevermind that the modules predate the novels).
yes, I remember thinking I had no choice at the age of 13 playing these....and trust me all our games were on rails when we look back...but these still stood out...
Quote:
I don't agree entirely, but that seems to be the concensus.
can we aleast get a concensus that the small races were destoryed by lack of an overall auther...(What I mean is in the novels the auther controls when something funny or endearing, or strange happens, so it never really messes witht he story...in a game ther are PCs and GMs and no one of them has that control)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Looks like Dragonlance is a lock for the 2010 setting.
I had my money on Dark Sun as well, but it's not a total shocker. Dragonlance does have some solid support and a novel line that still sells well.
Dragonlance might be really, really tricky through. I can't see it doing well at all!
Mostly because which Dragonlance do you do?
Do you do the classic Dragonlance of the War of the Lance and the original novels? But that does tend to lock the future into what's already happened.
Or do you do the SAGA Dragonlance of the Dragon Overlords?
Or do you do the modern War of the Souls Dragonlance? But it's completely different from the classic novels new fans will likely start with?
Picking the classic seems the best way for new fans but alienates those who've been following the world for years. Picking the current incarnation or skipping ahead alienates the fans of the classic world and will cause cries of "FR nuking" from those unfamiliar with the recent changes.
There's also the big issue of MWP content (Margaret Weis Press, formerly Sovereign press).
They managed the 3e Dragonlance line with some of the best fluff the line has ever see (great, great books), but fairly terrible crunch. Average 3PP stuff.
Does the brand new official books acknowledge what has happened in that line (such as the death of the last Dragon Overlord)? Can they use the fluff from those books for shared continuity? Will the writers from that line have input in the new books or will it be generic WotC staff?
I envision the latter with Wizbro using in-house writers, which might annoy fans of the MWP line and its writers (who are quite active and popular in that community). I expect lots of new contradictions and breaks from canon.
I could be wrong, but I recall someone from Wizards mentioning it, a couple of years ago (here, I think). I may misremember, or it might have been that the collected settings didn't make any profit.
You might be thinking of this quote from Ryan Dancey:
Quote:
We listened when customers told us that they didn't want the confusing, jargon filled world of Planescape
__________________ iAltdorf. An interactive map of the capital of the Empire in WFRP! Download today! Can be used in any fantasy campaign!
http://altdorfer.blogspot.com - Check out the Altdorf Correspondent! A WFRP blog about life in the Imperial capital.
"All editions of D&D are awesome." - Fifth Element (EN World Forums, 2008)
”The tendency to confuse personal taste with objective quality is nearly universal.” - Robin D. Laws – Robin’s Laws of Good Gamemastering (Steve Jackson Games, 2002)
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
