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My reading of it is that Xykon usually doesn't care about anything because nothing is a threat to him. If he were to die, he'd just resurrect himself next to the phylactery.
He wasn't really an idiot or fun guy before, just operating under a rather alien mindset of an eternal creature with no compassion, mortal needs or time limits.
Now that the phylactery is gone, his life is on the line. Things are suddenly starting to hit him very personally and close to home.
I hope I don't sound like an idiot here but... what is "Start of Darkness"?
No worries! Start of Darkness is one of the OotS prequel books, which explains the origins of the Xykon-Redcloak alliance. The other prequel is On the Origin of PCs, about the beginning of the Order of the Stick (and the character backgrounds).
What would that be? Xykon has certainly done some stupid things in the past, but I don't recall any significant blunders here. He got blindsided by O-Chul, but then so did just about everyone else, Redcloak included.
He made a big blunder not letting Redcloak regrow his eye. Not only does that make Redcloak less effective (permanently, this isn't some administrative punishment) but it also causes his chief minion to hate him (more -- I've read Start of Darkness).
It's like shooting at your bodyguard's grandmother, and then keeping them on as your bodyguard. Not a smart move.
Totally random thought but ... did any of you ever watch a cartoon called Kim Possible on the Disney channel (okay, i know, not the same audience demographic as enworld) ... ? Kim had a nemisis named Dr Drakken voiced by the same guy that did Bender on Futurama.
Bender and Drakken are the same voice actor? O_O I had no idea.
And wow, now that you have both of them in my head at the same time I see a lot of parallels between the Drakken/She-go relationship and the Xykon/Redcloak one. It's not a perfect parallel but...
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Bender and Drakken are the same voice actor? O_O I had no idea.
John DiMaggio. He's excellent. He also did Fu Dog on American Dragon and played Steve Ballmer in another movie. Never really noticed his voice that much, as opposed to Nicole Sullivan who when I heard her on the Secret Saturdays just got me confused about what show I was watching! Oddly enough, she was cast as Leela on Futurama.
hmm, voice actors for the OOTS crew...
Patrick Warburton would be too obvious a choice, but I'd love for Keith David to have a role.
I keep waiting for Redcloak to command Xykon. As a lich, # of hd isn't a strong point.
Well, since Xykon is an Epic-level Sorcerer that can cast a number of above 9th level slots, including at least 12th level Spell Slots (Maximized Energy Drain, plus Still Meteor Swarm) and the Epic spell Superb Dispelling (Spellcraft DC 59!), he's going to be at least 24th level at a bare minium (Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity x3, that's 4 epic feats, so his 21st and 24th level feats, plus his Epic Sorcerer bonus feats at 23rd level), and probably at least 26th level for Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) as an Epic Sorcerer Bonus Feat at that level to get close to being able to cast Superb Dispelling, not to mention that Liches have Turn Resistance 4, so he's effectively 28 to 30 HD for turning purposes.
In terms of being able to cast Superb Dispelling, if he's 26th level then he could have 29 ranks in Spellcraft, +2 from Skill Focus, +10 from Epic Skill Focus, +2 from Magical Aptitude, and +2 Synergy (for 5+ ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) for +45 easily. If he's 27th level then he could have taken Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) again and have a +56 and be able to make that spell on a roll of 3 (or a 1 if he has another +2 bonus from somewhere, I have trouble believing it is from Int though).
Redcloak, we don't know how powerful he is, but the highest spell we've seen him cast is Extended Summon Monster VII (8th level), so he's probably a 15th or 16th level cleric. If he's higher level, we have no direct evidence of it.
So, we have no evidence that Redcloak could even theoretically Rebuke/Command Xykon
He made a big blunder not letting Redcloak regrow his eye. Not only does that make Redcloak less effective (permanently, this isn't some administrative punishment) but it also causes his chief minion to hate him (more -- I've read Start of Darkness).
How does it reduce Redcloak's effectiveness? As far as I know, there's nothing in the D&D rules about penalties for missing eyes. It's strictly a cosmetic detail, albeit a really painful one.
As for making Redcloak hate him more... meh. I just can't see Redcloak turning on Xykon over this. After everything that happened in Start of Darkness, if Redcloak didn't betray Xykon then, he certainly isn't going to do so now. Redcloak has already sacrificed his own beloved brother for the sake of the Plan; compared to that, an eye is nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeGKushner
I keep waiting for Redcloak to command Xykon. As a lich, # of hd isn't a strong point.
Redcloak would have to have twice as many Hit Dice as Xykon in order to command him. Xykon being a lich, that means Redcloak would have to be twice Xykon's level. Not bloody likely.
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How does it reduce Redcloak's effectiveness? As far as I know, there's nothing in the D&D rules about penalties for missing eyes. It's strictly a cosmetic detail, albeit a really painful one.
I'm not talking metagaming.
[quote]As for making Redcloak hate him more... meh. I just can't see Redcloak turning on Xykon over this. After everything that happened in Start of Darkness, if Redcloak didn't betray Xykon then, he certainly isn't going to do so now. Redcloak has already sacrificed his own beloved brother for the sake of the Plan; compared to that, an eye is nothing.
Redcloak could find another master, work on a surprise, something. Xykon doesn't know a lot of Redcloak's reasons for hooking up with him in the first place.
If you have a valued minion, you don't treat them like dirt. It always ends badly.
There's no such thing in the Order of the Stick. All the major characters are well aware that their world runs by the 3.5E D&D rules. Heck, Redcloak has actually pulled out physical D&D books on occasion. Vaarsuvius went for weeks without trancing because the rules didn't say s/he couldn't. In "Origin of PCs," Elan tried to bribe some captured goblins and they laughed at him; then he pointed at them and declared he was making a Diplomacy check, and they instantly became fawning and servile.
If Redcloak doesn't get any penalties in terms of the game rules, then having only one eye is not going to reduce his effectiveness in any meaningful way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
Redcloak could find another master, work on a surprise, something. Xykon doesn't know a lot of Redcloak's reasons for hooking up with him in the first place.
If Redcloak were going to do that, he would have done it already. He would have destroyed the phylactery after Roy threw Xykon into the Redmountain Gate. The thing is, Redcloak has made tremendous sacrifices in the name of his alliance with Xykon; and he's the sort of guy who can't walk away from that... and Xykon knows it very well.
I say again: If Redcloak didn't turn on Xykon after the events of "Start of Darkness," losing an eye isn't going to make him change his mind now. Remember what Xykon said to Redcloak at the end of SoD. Nothing's changed since then.
(What might change things would be Xykon directly or indirectly bringing about the destruction of the fledgeling hobgoblin nation in Azure City. After all, Redcloak's whole raison d'etre is to establish a goblin civilization. If he betrays Xykon over a lost eye, then his sacrifices in Start of Darkness were for nothing; if he betrays Xykon to save the hobgoblins, however... that's another story.)
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Last edited by Dausuul; 14th June 2009 at 06:37 AM..
If Redcloak were going to do that, he would have done it already. He would have destroyed the phylactery after Roy threw Xykon into the Redmountain Gate. The thing is, Redcloak has made tremendous sacrifices in the name of his alliance with Xykon; and he's the sort of guy who can't walk away from that... and Xykon knows it very well.
I say again: If Redcloak didn't turn on Xykon after the events of "Start of Darkness," losing an eye isn't going to make him change his mind now. Remember what Xykon said to Redcloak at the end of SoD. Nothing's changed since then.
Bingo.
Xykon isn't a mentally handicapped child. He's not treating Redcloak like crap because he doesn't care - he's doing it specifically because he knows he can. Hell, the whole eye thing and how it applies to Right-Eye is also probably on purpose. He's pushing Redcloak because he knows Redcloak won't push back, and he's doing it to remind Redcloak of his place.
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He made a big blunder not letting Redcloak regrow his eye. Not only does that make Redcloak less effective (permanently, this isn't some administrative punishment) but it also causes his chief minion to hate him (more -- I've read Start of Darkness).
Since you've read that then you know he did the eyeball count = a****** count speech to reiterate who is whose bitch. It's not a new blunder, it is an extension/continuation of the smackdown he gave Redcloak the first time. He's just asserting his alpha dogness. Personally being forced to have only one eye is peanuts compared to being forced to raise your own bother as a zombie when you could have cast raise dead. YMMV.
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Redcloak sees Xykon as an invaluable asset in his own quest for Goblin supremacy, but one to be held at a certain distance.
That was the original intent, sure, but right now Xykon rules with an iron fist and Redcloak is well aware of his place. Make no mistakes, Redcloak is not remotely in control.
Xykon is actually pretty stupid, I'd even go as far as to hazard he may have Intelligence or Wisdom penalties (maybe even both), and certainly not bonuses. He couldn't remember Roy's name (or his father, or his father's master. . .), didn't care in the slightest for planning before the Battle of Azure City, and generally whenever it comes to planning and getting things done it's Redcloak we see doing anything that works towards long-term goals. Xykon is generally is reckless and dumb. It's Charisma he's got boatloads of, that and substantially more character levels than any other character currently running around in the strip that isn't long dead. The biggest thing Xykon has on his side when it comes to being an asset for Team Evil is that he has Epic-level firepower.
I agree with this. And it's hypocritically amusing that he blames Redcloak for sticking around Azure City, since he seemed to have little problem with just futzing around himself and torturing O-Chul for kicks.
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I agree with this. And it's hypocritically amusing that he blames Redcloak for sticking around Azure City, since he seemed to have little problem with just futzing around himself and torturing O-Chul for kicks.
Well that's standard Villain mentality "Do as I say not as I do" Well that and when you're the BBG its never your fault it's always because an underling messed up.
I agree with this. And it's hypocritically amusing that he blames Redcloak for sticking around Azure City, since he seemed to have little problem with just futzing around himself and torturing O-Chul for kicks.
Since Redcloak was actively manipulating Xykon - indeed, lying to him - to get him to stick around instead of hauling up stakes and heading for the next Gate, I'd say Xykon has a point.
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
I agree with this. And it's hypocritically amusing that he blames Redcloak for sticking around Azure City, since he seemed to have little problem with just futzing around himself and torturing O-Chul for kicks.
John DiMaggio. He's excellent. He also did Fu Dog on American Dragon and played Steve Ballmer in another movie. Never really noticed his voice that much, as opposed to Nicole Sullivan who when I heard her on the Secret Saturdays just got me confused about what show I was watching! Oddly enough, she was cast as Leela on Futurama.
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That was the original intent, sure, but right now Xykon rules with an iron fist and Redcloak is well aware of his place. Make no mistakes, Redcloak is not remotely in control.
Comic 548, which takes place during the Occupation of Azure City, sure makes it look like Redcloak does not see himself as a minion of Xykon, instead he sees himself as somebody who has to put up with him because of the very high value Xykon has to the larger plan.
He even says that he does not consider himself to really even be on the same side as Xykon, that the Goblins and Xykon are different sides working together for a mutual goal. When he says explicitly that "Xykon operates on a need to know basis and all he needs to know is we aren't finished here", "Xykon is a valuable ally, but he is NOT a Goblin.", "He does not have our best interests at heart, because he does not even have a heart" and "If you think for one round that Xykon gives a withered crap about the goblin race, I have a bridge to sell you to Terabithia." it kind of makes it look like Redcloak knows where his place really is, and it's not where Xykon thinks it is.
It's not a perfect parallel but...
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