General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
How about redefining what it means to gain a level? Perhaps your HP, AC, damage and hit chance don't appreciably change. Instead you gain more options. Each level you might gain a new daily power, or a daily becomes an encounter, or an encounter becomes an at-will. Or you learn a feat. At level 10 you have more things you can do, but for the few things the level 1 character can do, he can do them almost as well as you can.
In 1E we occasionally mixed low and high level characters. It worked fine except for when the plebes were caught with the rest of the party taking a 19 or 20D6 fireball.
Usually we played the lower level folks to about 7th or 8th level then moved them over to the higher level party. Except for one, all of our pcs were played from 1st level on up.
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How about redefining what it means to gain a level? Perhaps your HP, AC, damage and hit chance don't appreciably change. Instead you gain more options. Each level you might gain a new daily power, or a daily becomes an encounter, or an encounter becomes an at-will. Or you learn a feat. At level 10 you have more things you can do, but for the few things the level 1 character can do, he can do them almost as well as you can.
I made up a fake history for a WFRP PC once complete with cock-ups and near TPKs. Once you've played and read about enough rpg sessions you can see the same character types and situations repeat over and over.
The lone wolf. The paladin. The kender. The loony with the wand of wonder. The addiction to violence. The miscommunications. The paranoia.
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Last edited by Doug McCrae; 15th June 2009 at 02:55 AM..
In GW 1e, your stats and hit points are set at character creation (hp are xd6 where x=CON, so you have quite a few). Rolling to hit is, like in Chainmail, based on a matrix of Weapon type versus Armor Class... a Fusion Rifle needs to roll a y to hit AC z, etc. When you gain a "level", you get to roll on a chart that has various benefits, such as gaining a to hit bonus, a damage bonus or a stat bonus.
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As has been stated, remove the +1/2 level bonus PCs get and pluses on magical items. Reduce monster attack bonuses, defenses, and skills to level 1. Essentially, damage and conditions scale, but attack, defenses and skills do not. This method assures that low level characters are capable of contributing, although not as much as their higher level counterparts. There may also often have to be careful, since high level monsters deal more damage and they'll have low hp.
Alternately, you could have xp requirements (roughly) double every level. (Level 2 at 1000; level 3 at 2000; level 4 at 4000; level 5 at 8000, etc). You'd have to rework the xp values of monsters though (unless you want to severely slow the rate of leveling from 5th level on), which would mean that the encounter design mechanic of 4e would be completely defunct when including monsters lower or higher than the encounter level. I'm not sure how you'd work around that. Under this method low level characters are effectively dead weight, however they will level very quickly assuming they can survive.
Nonetheless, before implementing either of these methods, I would ask myself whether these rules would improve the players' enjoyment of the game.
We did this back in 1e and I heard someone on the board (diaglo maybe) that still does this. If the first level character survives the fights they do tend to level faster.
Might have been me, Crothian, as I do still follow the "rule" that everyone starts at 1st level. The ways I make it survivable (in 3.5e rules) are:
1) You can take a "monster" race with a higher ECL, but 1st level character level. You need to "earn off" the XP for the equivalent number of levels before advancing in the PC class. If you start off as a lizardman or a centaur (the two I've seen), you are a bit more survivable at first.
2) Players have the option of taking over an existing NPC. This happened recently, when a new player took over a local militia sergeant (3rd level warrior, in a party of 4th-7th level PC classes), who had been a guide for the PC's. In his case, once he earns enough XP for 4th level, I'll convert the 3 Warrior levels to Fighter levels.
3) Extra equipment. A new 1st level paladin just joined our 3rd-4th level party, but he does have a magic sword he inherited somehow. He's had no trouble surviving so far.
4) Biggish parties. Of my two active campaigns, the first (with the Warrior) has now 9 PC's, the second (with the Paladin) has 5 PC's. This doesn't guarantee survival, but it does increase the chances they are not the target for the deadly X attack, or are outside the blast radius.
5) Lowish power levels. I've never beyond about 10th level in 3.5e for the PC's. And background NPC's don't scale with the PC's -- when they are 10th level, the average soldier or tavern brawler they meet is still a 1st level Warrior (or Commoner). Monsters do get tougher, of course, but I still will throw in stuff like "a pack of 5 wolves" for a forest encounter table, regardless of level. Some folks think that's boring, I think it's verisimilitude -- every once in a while, it's fun to see how outlandishly powerful you've become.
Staying low level does make it a lot more feasible, nod, and up to 4th level (in 3.5 or AD&D) it seems to work without big problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberzanzorax
This will encourage selfish behaviors of survival among players who are higher than 1st level (and possibly suicidal behavior among new 1st level guys). Higher level guys will be LOATHE to die, while new 1st level characters will pale in comparison to the old character (and hence, players will not be invested in them).
In my experience, it does make dying pretty serious (and quests to get people raised quite urgent). But it doesn't make players more selfish. When your character is in SERIOUS danger (can be killed, and may not be immediately replaceable with something "just as good"), there's more emphasis on survival through cooperation, from what I've seen. For example, everyone carries rations, water, and a healing potion, just in case they get cut off somehow, and everyone knows where the other guy's potion is, in case he goes down and they need to feed it to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberzanzorax
One question: what is the reasoning behind your wanting to do this? I ask this because there may be other ways to reach your goal.
Mostly tradition. Many of my players are grognards and agree with me on this. Also, my universe supports this style of play, as not every encounter is "level appropriate" for any party. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's not, and part of the fun is knowing when to just fire some arrows, versus bringing out the big spells, versus running for your life. When the players get freaked out about rolling poison saves versus the twig blights, because they aren't sure if they are in a "level appropriate" unknown encounter or something really weird and tough, that's coolness on both sides of the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberzanzorax
Have hirelings in many adventures. These (or other NPCs) are statted out by players...heck, even the "bad guy" turned good could be used in this way. (This might also be a good way for you to alleviate some of your dm responsibilities). When a player dies, the hireling (usually of a level 3 or less than the pcs) becomes the new player character. Do this, and you have a "pool" of potential new pcs from which to draw, and it makes sense that they "step up" to join the party.
I do allow converting NPC's as an alternative.
Another alternative I allow is bringing in PC's developed in a different campaign. That idea REALLY is cool, I think, for people to be able to play "orphaned" old PC's from long gone campaigns.
It's not for everyone, but deveoping a character from scratch is often more fun than starting at 6th level.
Especially for someone's very first PC, earning your stripes and paying your dues is a lot more fun (IMHO) than having everything handed to you. Also, you really learn what everything means and how to use it, when you slowly and laboriously accumulated each power and piece of equipment. A neophyte with a 6th level cleric isn't going to be very good at playing at a 6th level cleric . . . a neophyte with a 1st level cleric will figure it out fast.
Which reminds me, in the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game, 1st level or NPC were the only ways to get characters into the party. I started 1st level characters into 5th level or so parties in that -- including a 1st level cleric who basically just summoned or healed for a while.
That's my point; when you go exploring, you want to be Kirk, Spock, Bones, or Sulu, not Ensign Rogers.
Ah, Sulu is a good example of mixed leveling. Spock and Kirk were clearly higher level that Sulu or Chekov (Chekov is always the first to fail a saving throw, Kirk or Spock the last), but it worked just fine for everyone . . . the red shirts were not PC's.
In 4E, I'd remove the 1/2 level bonus as a start. (Subtract this also from monster and PC attacks. You might want to go a step further and also remove item enhancement bonuses. In that case, drop monsters a further point per 5 levels. Or just give the PC higher level items. The other PCs could create them for him.
Of course, now the XP charts don't work as well as they used to - lower level monsters are stronger than they should be, and higher level monsters are weaker than they should be. Additional tweaking would be required.
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Starting everyone at 1st level certainly did work better in the older edition. But why was it easier in 1st than in 2nd (in AD&D for a while and 2nd for nearly a decade). Baseline 1e and 2e are almost identical mechanically.
Advancement rules changed between editions. The 1 xp per gp rule from AD&D 1E was fantastic for helping characters quickly shoot up in level when adventuring with higher-level groups.
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for 4e: can we assume they cover the new guy in appropriate level gear? Level 1 rolls with level 10s, they give him level 10+gear, meaning he could potentially gain 2 or 3 points of AC, non-Ac defenses, and to-hit. that would narrow the difference down to +5 from half level, or about a -25% chance to hit anything appropriately leveled, and anything appropriately leveled is 25% more likely to hit. this ignores stat bumps too, so possibly 30% both ways from a +6.
Also, since magic items weren't easily bought and sold, it was pretty easy to outfit a level one in decent gear in 1e. In 3e, that +2 sword was always sold to help buy a ring of protection +3, but in 1e, those were used to outfit new party members, hirelings, etc. And one encounter might net the new guy 1,000 gold which goes a long way toward leveling him. Hell, an npc might pay the group in advance and wham, he's level 2 without drawing a weapon.
Also, since magic items weren't easily bought and sold, it was pretty easy to outfit a level one in decent gear in 1e. In 3e, that +2 sword was always sold to help buy a ring of protection +3, but in 1e, those were used to outfit new party members, hirelings, etc. And one encounter might net the new guy 1,000 gold which goes a long way toward leveling him. Hell, an npc might pay the group in advance and wham, he's level 2 without drawing a weapon.
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1e this wouldn't be true since you need gp to get xp and treasure could be sold (just couldn't be bought)
2nd edition, this is where you would find PCs that had wheelbarrows filled with excess magic items they no longer needed but couldn't unload.
re: 1st level PC in higher level party
After you determine how much gear brings to the table, you then need to determine how lethal the game is...a hill giant in 4e is doing 2d10+7 (crit max of 27 pts of damage) so not enough to obliterate a 1st level melee centric PC. Similarly, a hill giant in 2e is doing 2d6 + 7 which while lethal toa 1st level PC shouldn't kill them outright
Whereas in 3e, that poor PC is going to be a fine mist when the giant hits
Yeah, I know what you are saying... The point is, the way you are playing certainly does support that kind of level gap (as Nifft said, more player-focused game instead of character-focused).
You can easily have a game, that has a lot of roleplaying (level is unimportant) and player puzzles (level is unimportant).
The average game does not work that way, though.
Anyways, I still don't see the point. What's the advantage of starting at 1st level, when the rest of the party is like 12th?
Bye
Thanee
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The point is, the way you are playing certainly does support that kind of level gap (as Nifft said, more player-focused game instead of character-focused).
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