General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
When Wizards of the Coast announced they were (basickly) rebooting the Forgotten Realms, I was not happy. I remember them citing reasons for the reboot as: there is so much canon that it was difficult for new authors to join in, if a throwaway line clashed with something written 15 years ago the internet would jump all over it, etc. I also remember thinking that those were bunk. And I am sure I said as much. Repeatedly and publickly.
Now I am a publisher. Working on the Traveller License from Mongoose, I'm getting to know the ins and outs of its long time fans. Lately I have seen changes made (regardless of why the change was made, ranging from conscious decision to standardize conflicting canon to not possessing an encyclopedic knowledge of 30 years of canon) get jumped all over. After 30 years of a setting there is a substantial amount of setting to know.
So I would like to own up to my comments made to and about Wizards of the Coast. I am sure their decision was not easy to make. I am sorry for my comments, and I wish you well in the future.
__________________
Jon Brazer Enterprises- Bringing You the Future
Players, put faith in your Pathfinder character with Book of the Faithful: Power of Prayer available at DriveThruRPG.com.
Hey there! Good for you, manning up in this way. Have some XP.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Dude...you publicly admitted you were wrong about something on the Internet?
I just had a heart attack and am typing this on my notebook as I'm being wheeled it out to the Ambulance....
----
Paramedic dude breaking in here, to say OMG man! Don't do that sort of thing! We're going to be working all day to deal with the shock! In fact I think my chest is starting....
No seriously kudos to you. Extreme kudos. Like instant power-leveling to 1,000,000!
When Wizards of the Coast announced they were (basickly) rebooting the Forgotten Realms, I was not happy. I remember them citing reasons for the reboot as: there is so much canon that it was difficult for new authors to join in, if a throwaway line clashed with something written 15 years ago the internet would jump all over it, etc. I also remember thinking that those were bunk. And I am sure I said as much. Repeatedly and publickly.
Now I am a publisher. Working on the Traveller License from Mongoose, I'm getting to know the ins and outs of its long time fans. Lately I have seen changes made (regardless of why the change was made, ranging from conscious decision to standardize conflicting canon to not possessing an encyclopedic knowledge of 30 years of canon) get jumped all over. After 30 years of a setting there is a substantial amount of setting to know.
The flipside, though, is that settings are popular for a reason. And one of those reasons may indeed be the large amount of information available. Significantly changing or rebooting that setting may instantly remove things that people loved about it. To me, if you're starting from scratch on name-recognition alone, you're doing a dis-service to fans. (Which, to me, means you are using the brand name - rather than the content - to lure people in.) If the new stuff you're writing is that good, put a new name on it and sell it as such. Or sell it as "with the wealth of knowledge we've learned over the years from [brand name], we've created this new setting [x] to succeed it." That way, fans of the old setting aren't pissed off that you're screwing up the things they love, and you can still use the brand as a draw.
Also, if you're going to write for a brand with a rich history, you'd better either educate yourself thoroughly on the areas you're writing about or have a good editor(s)/developer(s) who has(have) the knowledge. (For example, if I was ever going to write about Greyhawk, I sure as hell would want someone like Erik Mona checking my work.) If not, enjoy the (IMO) deserved criticism.
Also, if you're going to write for a brand with a rich history, you'd better either educate yourself thoroughly on the areas you're writing about or have a good editor(s)/developer(s) who has(have) the knowledge. (For example, if I was ever going to write about Greyhawk, I sure as hell would want someone like Erik Mona checking my work.) If not, enjoy the (IMO) deserved criticism.
Oh no doubt you need to know what you're writing about. Lets use a Star Trek Analogy for a moment. If I watched the nStar Trek Movie but never the TOS, TNG or any of the other major live action series (let alone the cartoon series or read any of the books), I'd do my research and watch/read some of them. But there is no way I can watch/read it all enough to possess a flawless encyclopediac knowledge of it all.
If I were writing about the nStar Trek crew running into Khan and his group (remember they can do that now since it hasn't happened yet), I would definitely watch the TOS episode that dealt with him as well as oStar Trek II. But I wouldn't know to watch the oTNG episode that mentioned Khan as being remembered as one of the great genociders of all time. If I was writing about nKirk in the Mirror Mirror universe, would I know to watch the DS9 episodes that dealt with what the impact Kirk had? I mean I am not writing about something that happens almost 100 years later so why would I watch it? Granted, I'd have the ST encyclopdia to tell me to watch that. But still it might not mention one small reference here or there.
An argument would next be to hire someone that has 30+ years of oStar Trek history under their belt. They may want to retire, have moved onto bigger and better things and don't really want to do that anymore, or they may miss stuff too. Either way, fans will jump all over any little mistake. No matter what the authors, editors, etc are not perfect.
EDIT: nStar Trek was true to the original character while being locking in by the actors that portrayed those same parts. In the same way, you can be true to the setting without being locked in by every detail of the setting. I don't know if Wizards accomplished that with nForgotten Realms. I hope that is what Wizards accomplished.
__________________
Jon Brazer Enterprises- Bringing You the Future
Players, put faith in your Pathfinder character with Book of the Faithful: Power of Prayer available at DriveThruRPG.com.
D. McCoy 1693
Last edited by dmccoy1693; 16th June 2009 at 08:46 PM..
I've found that both having a game published and working on my master's degree in a publishing related field gave me a lot of empathy towards publishers, and I've mostly given up complaining about how much books cost. (...Mostly.)
I gave up GMing settings with a lot of novels that I haven't read. I always ended up with at least a couple of players that have read everything ever written about the world and make it impossible to run a game.
It always ended up going like this.
Me:"The minotaur pirate swings his axe at you."
Player:"Wait, is that a Piggledyguk tribe minotaur or a Kryptar one?"
Me:"Uh, it's a Kryptar."
Player:"Kryptar minotaurs fear water worse than death, and can never be found onboard a ship."
Me:"It's a Piggeldyguk then."
Player:"They're universally lawful and would never be a pirate."
Me:"OK. The orc pirate swings his axe at you."
Player:"Is it a Humptar or a Grellion clan orc?"
Me:"Arrgh!"
I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to write in such a setting.
__________________ Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence.
The flipside, though, is that settings are popular for a reason. And one of those reasons may indeed be the large amount of information available.
It seems a little more likely that settings with a lot of stuff have been around a long time and are popular for their longevity (more time for people to stick with them) than -because- they have a lot of stuff!
But back on topic - tell us about your traveller stuff! Yay traveller!
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
and I want to hear more about your Traveler products...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
But back on topic - tell us about your traveller stuff! Yay traveller!
Wow! Two administrators telling me to do something. I guess I had better do it. I'm going to split that into a different thread. Split to here.
__________________
Jon Brazer Enterprises- Bringing You the Future
Players, put faith in your Pathfinder character with Book of the Faithful: Power of Prayer available at DriveThruRPG.com.
D. McCoy 1693
Last edited by dmccoy1693; 16th June 2009 at 10:38 PM..
There are good ways to reboot, and there are bad ways to reboot, from the perspective of the fans.
The Marvel Ultimate line of comics is a generally good way to reboot (certainly with the first 2 runs of the Ultimates and the Ultimate FF at least), as is John Byrne's run on Superman in the 1980s.
Traveller New Era, New Coke - not so good.
Forgotten Realms? I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
Personally I felt a reboot was necessary, not just for publishers, but for players and DMs. Getting into FR was difficult because there was just so much material out there. It was overwhelming. I feel that, with the FR reboot, they didn't erase anything that had come before - they just jumped ahead a century and changed how things are now (instead of retconning).
Personally I felt a reboot was necessary, not just for publishers, but for players and DMs. Getting into FR was difficult because there was just so much material out there. It was overwhelming. I feel that, with the FR reboot, they didn't erase anything that had come before - they just jumped ahead a century and changed how things are now (instead of retconning).
This is pretty much my opinion too.
Good luck on the Traveller publishing! I am only familiar with the Classic Traveller setting from GDW and the booklet style supplements. It was fun to run, though there were a lot of holes at the time (early 80's).
I haven't had a chance to even glance at the Mongoose incarnation, though. How is it?
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
I haven't had a chance to even glance at the Mongoose incarnation, though. How is it?
Its great (even if I wasn't biased). If you liked the Classic version, you'll like this. System is much more streamlined from the 80's while still being very compatible. Plenty of Classic players say that it really pushes their nostalgia button. And I help give it that extra dose of awesome.
__________________
Jon Brazer Enterprises- Bringing You the Future
Players, put faith in your Pathfinder character with Book of the Faithful: Power of Prayer available at DriveThruRPG.com.
Its great (even if I wasn't biased). If you liked the Classic version, you'll like this. System is much more streamlined from the 80's while still being very compatible. Plenty of Classic players say that it really pushes their nostalgia button. And I help give it that extra dose of awesome.
I agree. In fact my Fighting Ships and 760 Patrons arrived today, just minutes ago!
I think I have all the Mongoose books now.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Hey, what a cool - and positive! - thread. As a White-Box lover who set his game in the early period of the Realms, i´ve always felt the need for a reboot. Too much awesome fluff was concentrated into too few thought-space. I loved the clean-cut of a time-jump, and while i understand the feelings of those who love a lore-heavy campaing, i am happy that the needs of the settings have been aknowledged.
And i know what you mean with the fans - some of the things on the web have been downright scary. The gloom and anger on Candlekeep has been palpable, and far too often (and long) in a non-"live and let live" way. Oh well. Anyway, kudos to the OP.
__________________ C4bal: We´re watching your dicerolls.
X-Zine - the German review & news site for RPGs / books / comics / music / CCG / DVDs and much much more
The day a player holds me, as a GM prisoner to a fiction line I may or may not be using at all, is the day I put my screen away!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rykion
I gave up GMing settings with a lot of novels that I haven't read. I always ended up with at least a couple of players that have read everything ever written about the world and make it impossible to run a game.
It always ended up going like this.
Me:"The minotaur pirate swings his axe at you."
Player:"Wait, is that a Piggledyguk tribe minotaur or a Kryptar one?"
Me:"Uh, it's a Kryptar."
Player:"Kryptar minotaurs fear water worse than death, and can never be found onboard a ship."
Me:"It's a Piggeldyguk then."
Player:"They're universally lawful and would never be a pirate."
Me:"OK. The orc pirate swings his axe at you."
Player:"Is it a Humptar or a Grellion clan orc?"
Me:"Arrgh!"
I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to write in such a setting.
As a side bar, I would get to this point like you did but my next line would differ slightly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rykion
I
It always ended up going like this.
Me:"The minotaur pirate swings his axe at you."
Player:"Wait, is that a Piggledyguk tribe minotaur or a Kryptar one?"
Me:"Uh, it's a Kryptar."
Player:"Kryptar minotaurs fear water worse than death, and can never be found onboard a ship."
Me: "This one's not afraid of water how odd...what's your AC again?
"If you die first, we're splitting up your gear" - SkidAce
"Just because you don't like it, don't understand it, and can't explain it, doesn't mean that it doesn't work. "- Celebrim
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
