General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Personally, I think 80% of people converted to 4e, but that is just my own pure guesswork.
Take this for what it is worth which ain't much: While listening to many podcasts this past year from publishers and fans of all sorts of games I was surprised by how many of them when talking about what they were personally playing said 4e D&D.
Not to nit-pick, but I don't think Necromancer Games did either of these. The module was Green Ronin's Death in Freeport, and the Creature Collection was Sword & Sorcery Studios/White Wolf.
Correct - although the Creature Collection was Clark Peterson's baby (via White Wolf).
Although, the free Necromancer .pdf adventure - Wizard's Amulet - was, IIRC, out at Gen Con too...
Correct - although the Creature Collection was Clark Peterson's baby (via White Wolf).
Although, the free Necromancer .pdf adventure - Wizard's Amulet - was, IIRC, out at Gen Con too...
Having never (yet) been to Gen Con, I had forgotten that The Wizard's Amulet was there in print and not just as a free PDF afterwards. Likewise I had forgotten Clark's name on the CC. I was under the impression (recollection?) that they were user/fan submitted critters, like the spells and items in R&R.
Maybe, but there are more things likely to get cut back then the book, which gives you the most bang for your buck instead of say....a movie or eating out.
For some and for others no. Especially for people with families. Most of them I know RPG is the first budget cut, because movies and dinner is family events and RPG tends to just be one or sometimes both parents.
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Which means, ultimately, Necro was irrelevant to the general market for what, a year before 4e?
Not exactly since 4e was announced almost a year before it came out. the last necro product if I recall was earlier the same year when we learned 4e was coming out.
__________________ Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Last edited by Dark Mistress; 20th June 2009 at 12:32 AM..
Overall I've found adventures in general to be weaker in 4e. I don't know if that is bad luck on the ones I've seen or if there is something about 4e that causes me to not like the adventures. I like the game just fine.
So far, Burning Sky is great. But, I am a player in that, so I have not seen much of it yet.
I think people on ENWorld tend to overestimate the importance of 3pp, since this is the de facto home forum of fans of 3pp/OGL. I spend time at WotC and RPGnet, and remember my posting days at WotC prior to 4E's announcement. The "chatter" regarding 3pp/OGL on other sites is much less than it is here.
Agreed. There were many 3PP that kept me in the D&D fold rather than going elsewher in the gaming world. I know I cant be alone there.
Your not but the real question is how many of us are there? No one knows for sure and we can all throw around numbers from our personal experiences but the problems with that is. Birds of a feather tend to flock together.
Which is true, most of the gamers i knew the most where the ones that was big into 3pp stuff and they tend to be the group that least liked 4e.
But not to start a edition war. Anyways 3e brought me back to DnD but 3pp products keep me playing it, with out them honestly i would have went back to other games long ago like I did with 2e.
__________________ Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
How about finding a unifying thread of that game? How about a system-neutral world that has run through every edition of D&D prior to now (nudge nudge, a Greyhawk revival that is a setting only, not system specific; how rad would that be, nudge nudge)? Sometimes I wonder if Wizards has learned the lessons of the history of this hobby.
Clark
I've already got the statless 1980 Greyhawk folio that is very points of light and I had the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer whose only stats were deity domains for 3e (though unfortunately I lent it out and never got it back).
I'm guessing you are thinking of a mix of the statless nature of the Pirate's Guide and the style and depth level of the FR Campaign Guide.
Erik and James have popped on the forums explaining how they can't sell in big box stores because they're on a different scale of economy.
Not sure if James has chimed in on this, yet (I'm still digging through the thread), but I don't believe I've ever said that we _can't_ sell at big box stores (I assume here you're mostly talking about Barnes & Noble and the like).
Getting in those places is VERY difficult, but is is possible. We publish a lot of "small stuff" with tiny or even no spines, which makes stores like B&N reluctant to heavily stock our books. That said, the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting has gotten wonderful penetration into Barnes & Noble, and I expect the hardcover Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Bestiary to get significant play in bookstores as well.
Companies smaller than Paizo will likely get into B&N ONLY if they are distributed into the book trade by a professional distributor (really either DBD or PSI at this point), and even then it is far from a sure thing.
WotC, having decades of bookstore inertia from their own efforts, the efforts of _their_ distributors, the legacy of TSR's brands, and the piles and piles of corporate money they have thanks to publishing numerous very successful brands, doesn't face the same challenges smaller companies do when it comes to mass market penetration.*
--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
* I'm sure Scott Rouse could tell you horror stories about mass market accounts that we little guys can't even imagine, though, so it's not all wine and roses on either side of the industry.
Not exactly since 4e was announced almost a year before it came out. the last necro product if I recall was earlier the same year when we learned 4e was coming out.
The last Necro product was City of Brass, released at Gen Con 2007 - the same time 4E was announced.
The main successes in 3PP during the second half of 3rd Edition's timeframe came from 3PPs releasing non-D&D systems using the OGL. True20, M&M, Iron Heroes, Retro-Clones, ect.
That is probably true.
But support for 3.5 D&D was also still viable, there is no evidence of that being true for 4E now. And there is evidence to the contrary.
And besides, the market was flooded at that point for 3E. It is a whole need field ready to be plowed in 4E.
And that is the bottom line. There is plenty of reason to believe that there is a clear lack of adequate demand for 3PP market under 1 year old 4E. We can argue about why, but the people who make a living at it all appear to agree on that.
__________________ It was one of those nights when you turn out the lights, and everything comes into view
The combat system should be based on the world design. The world design should not be based on the combat system.
My 4 year old ties a towel to her shoulders and pretends to be a superhero. Roleplaying is not between the covers of a book.
As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
"I just want D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal." - A 4E fan
"I've got to have all that, but I require intelligent conversation as well." - Me
Take the 4E system, and fluff it out Necromancer style. Take races, classes, monsters and fluff them out 1E/3E style, and include the new 4E arrivals. Give the new 4E arrivals a place in the old school fluff. Expand the Points of Light with more specifics, using Necromancer's old school feel. Make it similar to a campaign setting, but focus on fluffing out all the facets of 4E available in the GSL Necromancer style as opposed to focusing on the setting itself.
Think of the fluff in the 1E/2E core books. The fluff in the complete 2E handbooks. Fluff as an interesting read for its own sake.
One thing that WotC with 4E is noticably going short on is fluff. Some people have been asking for it. If you want some low hanging fruit, Necromancer or other 3pp, this is it. Not fluff on medieval equipment or mounts or fringe things, detailed fluff on the core details of the game. I point this at Necromancer, as from what I've seen/heard this is the sort of thing I could see from them.
But support for 3.5 D&D was also still viable, there is no evidence of that being true for 4E now. And there is evidence to the contrary.
Such as? I'm still puzzled how you're using the fact that few people are producing high-quality third-party products as evidence that few people want high-quality third-party products.
I'll agree that nobody wants crappy third-party products. I'd also say the market tolerance for crappy third-party products is much, much lower than it was in early 3e.
Really, show me an Arcana Evolved or a Wilderlands or a WLD for 4e and we can talk about evidence. Right now, what you have is conjecture.
Why is M&M a better seller for GR than 4E? Or, at least, why are they placing their bets that way?
Chris has pretty much stated that the nail in the coffin for GR doing 4E was that the license could be yanked at any time. He is not going to build on a business model that counts on WotC's own business decisions.
The OGL couldn't be yanked, so a game line that is very successful based on the OGL can't be forced off the market. A game line based on the GSL can. I think no major RPG company can afford to put too many apples in that cart.
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Originally Posted by Mistwell
I agree, though I feel their modules are weaker in 4e. I think third parties could really take advantage of that and produce some great adventures.
I agree. I haven't seen or heard about any great adventures for 4E (except somewhat for a couple of the WotC ones that are headed in that direction).
Goodman has a decent line of adventures, but none really seem to be "great." The ones I have seen seem OK, and I haven't heard of any of their others getting a strong response.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
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