General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
But I believe that at the higher levels of the company, the GSL has worked exactly as they intended. I believe they are currently delighted with the state of things -- they've killed a bunch of the smaller competitors yapping at their heels. Yay.
I'm sure there are some that feel that way. There were some who felt that way when Ryan was championing the OGL too. But Wizards isnt one voice with one intent. So you cant really cast Scott as a lone voice against one monolithic other view. The GSL is proof of this problem--the GSL was a horse by committee. There were too many masters and too many different voices. Thats why the first GSL was a jumbled mess that tried to do a bunch of things yet acomplished NONE of them. The GSL tried to serve too many masters (and I'm sure one was the "get rid of 3P" voice).
But its a mistake to ascribe a singular intent to Wizards. That is where the "Wizards wants to kill 3Ps" argument fails--because they simply dont have a singular voice or vision. That is one of the problems. They cant figure out their overall view on 3Ps.
If there is an overall view, it is arrogant indifference and a belief that they are the only one that matters. And THAT has proved to be a huge mistake.
I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.
Its gonna be interesting.
Clark
__________________ Clark Peterson
Necromancer Games
www.necromancergames.com
I'm sure there are some that feel that way. There were some who felt that way when Ryan was championing the OGL too. But Wizards isnt one voice with one intent. So you cant really cast Scott as a lone voice against one monolithic other view. The GSL is proof of this problem--the GSL was a horse by committee. There were too many masters and too many different voices. Thats why the first GSL was a jumbled mess that tried to do a bunch of things yet acomplished NONE of them. The GSL tried to serve too many masters (and I'm sure one was the "get rid of 3P" voice).
But its a mistake to ascribe a singular intent to Wizards. That is where the "Wizards wants to kill 3Ps" argument fails--because they simply dont have a singular voice or vision. That is one of the problems. They cant figure out their overall view on 3Ps.
If there is an overall view, it is arrogant indifference and a belief that they are the only one that matters. And THAT has proved to be a huge mistake.
I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.
Its gonna be interesting.
Clark
I don't think there is that much of a parallel. WotCs arrogant indifference does not equate to TSR's open aggression and hostility. I know some wounds don't entirely heal, and people who were invested in the OGL have been let down, but honestly this isn't the same ballpark.
I believe that at the higher levels of the company, the GSL has worked exactly as they intended. I believe they are currently delighted with the state of things -- they've killed a bunch of the smaller competitors yapping at their heels. Yay.
If indeed WotC is threatened by the amount of sales generated by all other d20 3pp in aggregate, then they are in serious trouble.
As in, "I'm going to eat these scraps of gristle myself because if I give them to the dog, I will starve," kind of trouble.
So we're clear, discussion of the character builder doesn't belong in this thread.
Thanks.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.
Its gonna be interesting.
Clark
In the economy and thus in business there are no perfect or ideal solutions. Each decision or choice has a price to pay. Always. Wotc's actions may seem to have caused some harm but the fact is that they were worse first place. Or could have been worse. Regarding 3pp the problem in the end seems to be that 4e is a strictly focused and balanced game and mechanically demanding. This means that is not so much 3pp friendly as 3e was: this is valid for both the developers and the clients who now seem to pay more attention to dedicated material -biggest success example the character builder. Regarding 4e, Wotc is going strong. There is not the room or space for 3pp as there was for 3.xe.
This "4e" effect to the fan base could shape an attitude very different than the 3.x one which was one system for all. And this is a very good thing for who likes tabletop rpgs.
I buy my WotC D&D books from Amazon, they are heavily discounted & the p&p is free. The hardbacks have been of consistent high quality and I have a pretty good idea what I'm getting when I buy them. In other words, value for money.
If I want to buy a 3pp product I have to mail order it from a specialist games supplier, at full price & with a hefty p&p (usually 10%) on top. I am also less clear on what I would be getting, it might be great, then again it might suck. Its a gamble and I only have a limited budget.
Its also a lot easier to create your own stuff with 4e than it was before, in fact with 3e I felt overwhelmed by the amount of choice.
As a player I just don't feel the need for more stuff, I'm in control of my game. The WotC books are fairly balanced and not full of uneeded fluff (I don't need to know what goliaths eat for breakfast).
As a dm I would like more monsters, I would be really open to themed monster books (like Open Grave), I want to run an urban themed campaign, so lots of humanoid rogue types would be nice. I also miss the very detailed campaign settings, I really liked Scarred Lands (which did the Gods/Primordal thing much better than PoL).
I hope the 3pps do find a new new market niche to exploit and find a way around the distributers, maybe reach the fans direct somehow. Good luck with your market research.
Just to nip in real quick - on the note of Wizards' products just being overall better then 3rd party ones...you don't know many psionics fans, do you?
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Why are joyous 4E fans not buying the 3PP product that is out there?
If 4E fans were buying Mongoose would sell to them.
I'm starting to see a pattern....granted take it with salt, but it seems like 4e fans are more likely to want the official items, where as those that stayed behind are much more likely to buy and use the 3rd party products....
Your not but the real question is how many of us are there? No one knows for sure and we can all throw around numbers from our personal experiences but the problems with that is. Birds of a feather tend to flock together.
Which is true, most of the gamers i knew the most where the ones that was big into 3pp stuff and they tend to be the group that least liked 4e.
But not to start a edition war. Anyways 3e brought me back to DnD but 3pp products keep me playing it, with out them honestly i would have went back to other games long ago like I did with 2e.
Oh definately. I do not want to go back to edition war. Thats not the point.
3rd brought me back too, after teh burn out of 2nd. The 3rd party proucts kept me around. We've been playing Ptolus for actually 2 years now and no end in sight...
But keep in mind, while no there are no numbers to show that 3rd party products kept alot of folks around, it cuts both ways. One cant say that 3rd party products didnt keep folks around either.
Yeah the folks I play and hang with are all the same cut. One guy has been playing 4e, but the other 6, including myself, have no interest in 4e. The one who did is about to give up on it, as in comparison to the current Ptolus game, the 4e game doesnt even come close to being as good. *shrug*
So we're clear, discussion of the character builder doesn't belong in this thread.
Thanks.
Why not? It's clearly an important factor and one which isn't discussed enough in relation to 3pp of 4e. It's a lot more interesting and noteworthy than hearing the same old spiel about the terribly fractured playbase and how everyone's anecdotel evidence supports the triumph of their preferred edition.
While I sympathize - and clearly my anecdotal evidence is WAY better than those other peoples', nyah! - please read the rules. If you have a question about moderator actions, we ask that you PM or email them (email addresses are available in a sticky thread in the Meta forum.) Never bring it up in-thread.
Someone can feel free to start a thread about Character Builder and 3PP integration issues, incidentally.
~ Piratecat
Last edited by Piratecat; 20th June 2009 at 04:46 PM..
Also agreed. The first GSL did NOT fail. It worked just as it was meant to work. It drove people away from 3PP and kept 3PP out of Wotc's pond.
One could argue it didnt work quite as they intended. If the intention was to keep folks buying "in house" ie---Wotc 4e, it also drove people further into the hands of their favorite 3PP.....
But did keep a good chunk of the betetr 3pp out of the 4e waters.
But its a mistake to ascribe a singular intent to Wizards. That is where the "Wizards wants to kill 3Ps" argument fails--because they simply dont have a singular voice or vision. That is one of the problems. They cant figure out their overall view on 3Ps.
I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.
The problem is sir, that one only has to look at their actions and the results. Maybe it wasnt intential, maybe it was. But they cut the staff working on the GSL, delayed it for a while with the revisions and arent exactly jumping up and down to fix the situations.
Scott is a great person from your words, and a couple of others probably as well. But a handful of people,speaking on the openess of the OGL or a more open GSL doesnt quite cancel out WotC's actually actions.
Actions have always spoke louder than words. I still dont see Wotc/Wizards/Hasbro changing here. But thats just me.
To be honest, you still seem like your cheerleading with rosecolored glasses, rather than looking a bit more objectively. But thats just me.
Carmachu, for what it's worth I'll echo Orcus on that count. My experience hasn't shown me that WotC has a clear vision about third party publishers, and when that gets muddled then the more risk adverse parts of the company start muddying it up for the people who do have a clear vision but not the ultimate authority to impose it. Based on what I've seen, I'll include Scott Rouse and his team in that second part.
I think that's one of the reasons that Adkison/Dancey's WotC was so effective; the man in charge had a clear vision and mandate that was communicated well and carried out at all levels. Without Greg Leeds himself pushing it, I don't think that could be easily replicated today.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
I'm starting to see a pattern....granted take it with salt, but it seems like 4e fans are more likely to want the official items, where as those that stayed behind are much more likely to buy and use the 3rd party products....
Heh. I made that same observation on these boards a year ago or more when some 4e folks were suggesting Paizo would make more money selling 4e items because the 4e market was 'obviously' bigger.
Carmachu, for what it's worth I'll echo Orcus on that count. My experience hasn't shown me that WotC has a clear vision about third party publishers, and when that gets muddled then the more risk adverse parts of the company start muddying it up for the people who do have a clear vision but not the ultimate authority to impose it. Based on what I've seen, I'll include Scott Rouse and his team in that second part.
I dont know what their vision is. But what I do know is what has happened- GSL fiasco, and whats not happening in major 3PP support. Ultimately their actions speak-whether its the authority doesnt want them along, or that their unsure how they want them along, in the end its still the same results.
Necromancer Games had a hell of a sweet spot for with the S&S brand, any company would have wanted that type of positioning, I am sure they struggled to regain that kind of distribution as a print publisher (examples of Kenzerco and Paizo partnerships come to mind) Now they will have to recreate themselves as a pdf and PoD publisher.
I hope that Necromancer Games has tremendous success.
Necromancer Games had a hell of a sweet spot for with the S&S brand, any company would have wanted that type of positioning, I am sure they struggled to regain that kind of distribution as a print publisher (examples of Kenzerco and Paizo partnerships come to mind) Now they will have to recreate themselves as a pdf and PoD publisher.
I hope that Necromancer Games has tremendous success.
Well a while back Necro was in talks with Paizo about partnering with them for publishing. I don't know if it happened for sure or not but i wouldn't be surprised if it did.
__________________ Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I dont know what their vision is. But what I do know is what has happened- GSL fiasco, and whats not happening in major 3PP support. Ultimately their actions speak-whether its the authority doesnt want them along, or that their unsure how they want them along, in the end its still the same results.
Again, I think the ENWorld community tends to overestimate the importance of 3PP. If 3PP are only a blip on the screen to WotC, can the GSL really be called a fiasco? Sure its a fiasco to OGL/3PP fans, but is it a fiasco to the larger D&D community or WotC/D&D itself?
I think things get muddled because of people's personal stake in things, and the fact that ENWorld seems to have a larger percentage of OGL/3PP fans than is the norm.
Again, I think the ENWorld community tends to overestimate the importance of 3PP. If 3PP are only a blip on the screen to WotC, can the GSL really be called a fiasco? Sure its a fiasco to OGL/3PP fans, but is it a fiasco to the larger D&D community or WotC/D&D itself?
It helped frangment the community more than any other time. With hard feelings and hard lines.....which have finallly cooled more than a bit. I wouldnt exactly call it a blip.
Support wasnt right out of the gate, so I would say so, fiasco.
Quote:
I think things get muddled because of people's personal stake in things, and the fact that ENWorld seems to have a larger percentage of OGL/3PP fans than is the norm.
Well one could also argue enworld has the more vocal members of the gaming community in total, no matter which side of the fence your on.
and the fact that ENWorld seems to have a larger percentage of OGL/3PP fans than is the norm.
I believe you are absolutely right on that.
I believe there is a very high correlation between players who want more and more options and players who will get involved in online discussions of their hobby.
Most of the fan base is more casual. And most of them never even read a single post here.
Also, there are three tiers here (using a broad brush of course).
There are players who never come here, lurkers, and posters. The posters are going to be the most intensely involved of the three. And since they are the only ones posting, their opinions will be very over-stated.
(And yes, lots of exceptions, but that is the over-arching pattern)
__________________ It was one of those nights when you turn out the lights, and everything comes into view
The combat system should be based on the world design. The world design should not be based on the combat system.
My 4 year old ties a towel to her shoulders and pretends to be a superhero. Roleplaying is not between the covers of a book.
As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
"I just want D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal." - A 4E fan
"I've got to have all that, but I require intelligent conversation as well." - Me
Trailblazer is now available.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
