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I don't think it was just the GSL. I think Clark was assuming more of a continuation of the open gaming environment of the 3E era, as Necromancer games prided itself on the old school feel. 4E is a very specific sort of game, far more so than any previous edition of D&D. It doesn't really lend itself to alternate interpretations or the "old school" Necromancer feel, and the GSL basically disallows you to reinvent the wheel with 4E. So the combination of the GSL being restricting in a business/IP sense, 4E being contrary to the "flavor" of Necromancer, and the GSL restricting the ability to rewrite 4E failed to live up to Necromancer's expectations.
There's always the OGL games... S&W, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lord...
1st edition rules AND 1st edition feel.
WotC can't revoke the OGL.
Sorry, I just had to.
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I have to admit, I'm chuckling to myself right now.
4E's BIGGEST cheerleader isnt/cant do proucts for it, because WOTC screwed around to much getting the GSL out and properly done?
The irony is astounding, especially in light of some of Orcus's words in the GSL forum, once the GSL was finally redone....what was his words again?
I don't think there is anybody, including anybody from WotC, who would try to argue that they didn't seriously drop the ball when it comes to the GSL.
But not everyone tends to be meanspirited about it.
Business mistakes happen. Oh well. I'm sure that there are WotC employees just as frustrated as Clark and a few more directly responsible for the mess that are kicking themselves now. And I'm sure at the higher levels there are some who still don't get it. It is the way of the modern corporation, and WotC is not immune.
The company still remains the top entertainment company in tabletop gaming, and deservedly so. They still end up taking a huge percentage of my money, that's for sure.
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
I don't think there is anybody, including anybody from WotC, who would try to argue that they didn't seriously drop the ball when it comes to the GSL.
But not everyone tends to be meanspirited about it.
One could argue that might have been more than dropping the ball, considering how the first GSL looked, and more on how it was handled.
But thats just speculation.
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Business mistakes happen. Oh well. I'm sure that there are WotC employees just as frustrated as Clark and a few more directly responsible for the mess that are kicking themselves now. And I'm sure at the higher levels there are some who still don't get it. It is the way of the modern corporation, and WotC is not immune.
The company still remains the top entertainment company in tabletop gaming, and deservedly so. They still end up taking a huge percentage of my money, that's for sure.
Wotc doesnt anymore from me, but I hope you enjoy the edition your using.
But I can say I'm exactly sad. I'll miss some of the products Necro put out, but frankly everyone else had plans and contingencies...while he cheerlead and waited. And while the naysayers spoke, he poo pooed them down.
carmachu to be fair necro has a contingency plan as well. Support Pathfinder, which they will now do. How much is still left to be seen.
And I don't think his desire is any less than it was. I think it is more the market is very soft, so much so that a small company like Necro might struggle to even break even on 4e print products. Because distributors and such are not that interested because of the general slow down.
I am not saying that is because of 4e, the economy and peoples bank accounts are taking a beating. So when things get tight, hobbies are the first thing to go as far as spending for most people. I think it is more a combination of issues that has lead us to the point we are in, which has left Necro in the position they now find themselves.
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edit --- Hrm, didn't realise that about PoL II. OK, well maybe that one *is* slightly 4e-ish. The first one, not one bit.
Yeah, your right, "points of light" doesn't relate to 4E marketing at all.
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carmachu to be fair necro has a contingency plan as well. Support Pathfinder, which they will now do. How much is still left to be seen.
While supporting pathfinder is great, hell its the path I choose, it doesnt really help the 4e fans that waited patiently for them. That doesnt help them.
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And I don't think his desire is any less than it was. I think it is more the market is very soft, so much so that a small company like Necro might struggle to even break even on 4e print products. Because distributors and such are not that interested because of the general slow down.
I am not saying that is because of 4e, the economy and peoples bank accounts are taking a beating. So when things get tight, hobbies are the first thing to go as far as spending for most people. I think it is more a combination of issues that has lead us to the point we are in, which has left Necro in the position they now find themselves.
Things were pretty tight back in 2001/2002 around. Hobbies tend to be inelastic(there's a discussion over in GW lands about that) as the hobby stretches your entertainnment budget- so long as you get off the constant buying wagon.
Someone pointed something out elsewhere-even before 4e announcement they were slowing down. Have you looked at their upcomiong product page? The first few entries have an assigned release date of Sep 2006 (Shades of Grey, Mother of All Treasure Tables, and Tower of Jhedovar). I thought the last was released already? The next set includes a bunch of "To be announced" and others from 2006-2007. Nothing with a release date from 2008 forward.
Wouldn't one of the sources for hesitation on the part of players and DMs on picking up 3pp be the fact that it isn't integrated into the char builder?
Looking at various online 4e games, one of the most common descriptions is "all char builder -legal/char builder -legal no forgotten realms/dragon etc"
I don't think the 4e char builder should be discounted in how players approach the game...
I looked on Clark's announcement as hopeful news, because I think highly of some of the NG adventures, but have zero interest in 4e. I'm one of those guys who would like to see "1e feel with 1e rules" (or any retro-clone rules, for that matter) from NG. NG shifting away from 4e makes that more likely (even if it's still unlikely -- I'm not holding my breath).
The NG material that I liked the best was mostly stuff that originally came from Bill's (I think) 1e campaign, to begin with: Rappan Athuk, Demons & Devils, Tomb of Abysthor. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see: site-based stuff that I can insert into my game, statted out with TSR-era D&D rules. Doesn't even need to be big modules. I'd be happy with smaller PDF and POD modules. What were the page counts for classics like G1, D2, A4, B4, et cetera?
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Thatīs sad news and in more than one way.
I always liked Necro Adventures and the later mini-campaigns. That was what I was missing from WotC and to which Necro catered - good adventures. And thatīs still missing.
That aside, I never cared for their rule books (Tome of Horror series, etc.) and was never into the whole 1st edition feel thing.
In my opinion, two things threw Necro out of the field: The fact that Orcus is a lawyer and seemingly understood the GSL better than the competition (or gave it more thought) and the retro-focus, quite evident in their boards and projects like 4E classic. The GSL thing canīt be helped, but what about the latter?
AlleisterH mentioned the CB, but why would this be an issue when it comes down to adventures w/o any stuff for the players?
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While supporting pathfinder is great, hell its the path I choose, it doesnt really help the 4e fans that waited patiently for them. That doesnt help them.
I was just pointing out as a company they had a backup plan from a business point of view.
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Things were pretty tight back in 2001/2002 around. Hobbies tend to be inelastic(there's a discussion over in GW lands about that) as the hobby stretches your entertainnment budget- so long as you get off the constant buying wagon.
Didn't say it was not tight then but the economy does have a impact on what people are buying and how much right now. Thats all i was saying is it was ONE of the factors involved.
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Someone pointed something out elsewhere-even before 4e announcement they were slowing down. Have you looked at their upcomiong product page? The first few entries have an assigned release date of Sep 2006 (Shades of Grey, Mother of All Treasure Tables, and Tower of Jhedovar). I thought the last was released already? The next set includes a bunch of "To be announced" and others from 2006-2007. Nothing with a release date from 2008 forward.
All three was released as was City of Brass the last product came out I believe summer of 07 from them(not sure the exact time). Which will mean they have not had a product in 2 years now.
__________________ Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
After seeing the absolute mess that was the "4E classic" discussions and virtually no direction or input from the Necro crew themselves, I gave up on that ever seeing the light of day, and mostly dropped off from posting there re: 4E- but I was still hopeful for some good 'ol Necro modules for 4E.
Although I'm not surprised by his post, I am disappointed with Clark's decision (or perhaps another "lack of decision"). All the back and forth back BS for months about the GSL, and then the changes are made yay... all the cheerleading yayy and these are the products we are gonna do yayy, and now...pretty much nothing-just like before. While I understand he has to make the best decision business-wise for himself, a bunch of times I found myself thinking "OK Clark, just , or get off the pot".
Goodman has been getting my 4E money, will continue to do so, and I'm glad Joe took the ball and ran with it- GG is putting out some great stuff for ALL the editions.
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While supporting pathfinder is great, hell its the path I choose, it doesnt really help the 4e fans that waited patiently for them. That doesnt help them.
Poor 4e fans, no one to "help" them other than Mr. Goodman.
You make it sound like Necromancer failed in their responsibility to the fans, to provide us with product. While I would love to see Necromancer do 4e stuff (and I would buy it), and I sympathize with Clark's position, I find it ridiculous to "blame" him for "failing" or for not "helping" me out. Jeesh!
Fan entitlement and the disdain some fans seem to dredge up for creators who don't do things the "right" way (i.e. the complainer's way) never ceases to boggle me. Clark has no responsibility to anyone but himself and his partners at Necromancer. If he makes good stuff, awesome, I'll buy it. If he doesn't, I'll be disappointed, but won't feel the need to "dance on his grave" and mock the "delicious irony".
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
Poor 4e fans, no one to "help" them other than Mr. Goodman.
You make it sound like Necromancer failed in their responsibility to the fans, to provide us with product. While I would love to see Necromancer do 4e stuff (and I would buy it), and I sympathize with Clark's position, I find it ridiculous to "blame" him for "failing" or for not "helping" me out. Jeesh!
Fan entitlement and the disdain some fans seem to dredge up for creators who don't do things the "right" way (i.e. the complainer's way) never ceases to boggle me. Clark has no responsibility to anyone but himself and his partners at Necromancer. If he makes good stuff, awesome, I'll buy it. If he doesn't, I'll be disappointed, but won't feel the need to "dance on his grave" and mock the "delicious irony".
So, 3E fans are more deserving of 3pp support than 4E fans?
That aside, I never cared for their rule books (Tome of Horror series, etc.) and was never into the whole 1st edition feel thing.
In my opinion, two things threw Necro out of the field: The fact that Orcus is a lawyer and seemingly understood the GSL better than the competition (or gave it more thought) and the retro-focus, quite evident in their boards and projects like 4E classic. The GSL thing canīt be helped, but what about the latter?
See, the "retro" feel was a MAJOR appeal to me back in the early days of 3rd ed ("3rd ed rules, 1st ed feel!"). You can't target some groups without alientating some others. It's hardly fair to cite their direction in regards to the flavor of their products when A) that's what they like in their own games and B) that was the target niche to whom they were marketing.
Meh, I think Necro just wanted to jump out of the 4E gates with AAA titles (imho) like Eamonvale Incursion and Slumbering Tsar and hit the ground running. The GSL screwed that, and maybe thats what took the sails out of Necro.
Regardless, as people have stated NG hasnt put out anything in a long time and its run more as a side job than an actual 3PP like Goodman.
On a tangent-Goodman is hopefully going to be re-releasing the older stuff on PDFs again soon. Makes me kind of curious about how well their 4E stuff is selling, im probably reading too much into that though.
On a tangent-Goodman is hopefully going to be re-releasing the older stuff on PDFs again soon. Makes me kind of curious about how well their 4E stuff is selling, im probably reading too much into that though.
I think you are. Since all they are doing is re-releasing their old DCCs (with corrections and necessary edits to make them OGL rather than d20) its pretty much a few weeks work for some easy money.
If they start making new 3.5/Pathfinder related material though, then I can officially believe their something to this "4e isn't selling" conspiracy...
I don't think there is anybody, including anybody from WotC, who would try to argue that they didn't seriously drop the ball when it comes to the GSL.
Why? Didn't 3rd party stuff glut the market and the lack of quality control from some 3PPs damage the brand? Orcus even implies that there's not much appetite for it from distributors and retailers. In light of that, maybe the GSL is working as intended i.e. WOTC not forfeiting control over the latest edition under the D&D brand.
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Last edited by rounser; 19th June 2009 at 05:12 AM..
Booooooooooooo. I was hoping to get my paws on a lot of good Necro stuff to shoehorn 4e into more of a game that I'm excited for (I play it and enjoy it well enough now, but it's kind of perfunctory).
Ah, well. I'll keep up with what they're doing for Pathfinder.
It's very frustrating when the lawyers get in the way of a good product.
Still, I'd take this as an opportunity to get a handle on the online market. The publishing industry is going through a shake-up, so now is the time to get wildly experimental, throw everything at the wall, and see what sticks.
I'll take those 4e Necro PDF's, and I'll use the heck out of 'em. Use 'em, abuse 'em, etc.
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