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Why? Didn't 3rd party stuff glut the market and the lack of quality control from some 3PPs damage the brand? Orcus even implies that there's not much appetite for it from distributors and retailers. In light of that, maybe the GSL is working as intended i.e. WOTC not forfeiting control over the latest edition under the D&D brand.
I think I can explain this. You ever had a few shelves of product you paid for you can't sale?
Ya see it wans't the d20 glut that hurt. Back when Wotc pulled out 3.5 shelves everywhere now had loads of stuff that where outdated and pretty much unsellable. So they take the lose and stop looking or carrying much 3pp as well to risky.
We go forward a few years some names are still pushing stuff out and have fainly started to make headway into stores again.
Then Wotc drops the 4e bombshell, something that they have told everyone was year and years away. And 3pp everywhere have product no one will touch as its now outdated and to a "dead" edition. stores take big loses on 3pp and so do many of the company.
Sales leading up to 4e where awful and well ya can't blame folks for buying something that is not the current edition. and you can't blame stores for not wanting to touch 3pp
So there ya have it, the risk of having unsellable stock is just to great much less for a 3pp that have not been pushing it out monthly
__________________ Remember kids whisky will not put out flaming mages ,but it will confuse the deathknight
"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
Thank you Gary Gygax, for everything.
"Rock on, Paizo, for you rock mightily".- dragonlordofpoondari
Last edited by Hunter In Darkness; 19th June 2009 at 05:59 AM..
On a tangent-Goodman is hopefully going to be re-releasing the older stuff on PDFs again soon. Makes me kind of curious about how well their 4E stuff is selling, im probably reading too much into that though.
Goodman should be re-releasing the older DCC modules in PDFs ... especially since the Judges Guild modules released through Goodman Games have already been updated and re-released.
Assuming he gets to read this, I'll say: Clark, thanks for trying to do things the right way, even if the end result didn't work out as planned. I don't think WotC corporate wanted a "Golden Age", they wanted a "Profitable Age" -- even if the enthusiasm is not as it once was.
I've even turned off a little to 4E myself, lately -- after the good basic tools I saw in the first three core books and the PHB2, I really haven't seen seen much I've wanted, myself. The rest, I've been able to create myself, and the "new" innovations from Wardens, to the stuff in Arcane power, to Adventurer's Vault, most of it has left me a bit blank.
I've even given up my DDI subscription because not only have I not had much use for it this year, but I got too much hassle when I had to change my subscription. I just said "screw it" and didn't re-subscribe.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
I think I can explain this. You ever had a few shelves of product you paid for you can't sale?
Ya see it wans't the d20 glut that hurt. Back when Wotc pulled out 3.5 shelves everywhere now had loads of stuff that where outdated and pretty much unsellable. So they take the lose and stop looking or carrying much 3pp as well to risky.
We go forward a few years some names are still pushing stuff out and have fainly started to make headway into stores again.
Then Wotc drops the 4e bombshell, something that they have told everyone was year and years away. And 3pp everywhere have product no one will touch as its now outdated and to a "dead" edition. stores take big loses on 3pp and so do many of the company.
Sales leading up to 4e where awful and well ya can't blame folks for buying something that is not the current edition. and you can't blame stores for not wanting to touch 3pp
So there ya have it, the risk of having unsellable stock is just to great much less for a 3pp that have not been pushing it out monthly
You are missing a few steps here. 3.5E's hostility towards 3pp goes beyond simply changing the game and making older books incompatible. Before 3.5, D&D wasn't as focused on selling splatbooks of player options. In base 3E, we had the Sword and Fist et cetera line of books which paled in comparison to what 3pp were publishing. These books were popular, and when 3E was revised and relaunched WotC dove into the splatbook business, not only creating compatibility issues but creating their own books in competition with 3pps. You also discount the damage that the 3pp community did to itself.
The issues we describe in this thread are not unique to RPGs. I work for a distribution company that is desperate to shrink inventory during these recession times. Look at GM/Chrysler dealers left holding the bag with all the cars nobody wants. As discretionary (really, any spending) shrinks, it becomes almost toxic to have inventory because you're paying to hold something that might not sell quickly enough.
Someone mentioned 3e being more deserving of 3pp, despite being an avid fan of 4e I would be inclined to agree. To be blunt, when I played 3e I was always underwhelmed by the quality of the splatbooks and supplements being released by WotC. Aside from learning to hone the ruleset over the course of 4e, they learned some valuable business model lessons as well. The success of the 3.5 PHB2 obviously did not go unnoticed. WotC simply has a very shrewdly concocted 4e release schedule and system of modules/supplements/sourcebooks that really comes off as high-value compared to what was usually coming out in the 3e era.
In turn, that sets the bar of quality higher for potential 3pp. It probably also means their potential customers are spending more of their budget on the 1pp first. Now, the onus falls on the 3pp to convince the customer they should grow their entertainment budget. GSL aside I would say the business model of 4e is less friendly to 3pp, there are fewer cracks waiting to be filled in, almost no "low hanging fruit" missed opportunities.
And the fact that no Character Builder support would be a deal breaker from a surprising number of people. I know people who won't use WotC stuff until the builder has it.
Oh yes I recall the..humm lets just say I recall the glut. Still glut didnt not have as much to do with it as the edition switch.
The stores do not read the book, how are they to know it's junk. What they saw was good sales..ok sales then ed change and all this stuff I can't sale
But hey look the Wotc stuff is saleing but I can't sale the 3pp stuff. So a few years later re do it again without the glut so who do they stop carrying?
Not blaming Wotc for the issue but there it is. All the store knows it If I stock all this and they change it who is going to buy my stock?
__________________ Remember kids whisky will not put out flaming mages ,but it will confuse the deathknight
"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
Thank you Gary Gygax, for everything.
"Rock on, Paizo, for you rock mightily".- dragonlordofpoondari
Oh yes I recall the..humm lets just say I recall the glut. Still glut didnt not have as much to do with it as the edition switch.
The stores do not read the book, how are they to know it's junk. What they saw was good sales..ok sales then ed change and all this stuff I can't sale
But hey look the Wotc stuff is saleing but I can't sale the 3pp stuff. So a few years later re do it again without the glut so who do they stop carrying?
Not blaming Wotc for the issue but there it is. All the store knows it If I stock all this and they change it who is going to buy my stock?
Not saying that you don't have a valid point, Hunter, but I know that locally the reason the stores had leftover 3pp product in the first place was because it was crap. A couple of books sold to very specific parties, but for the most part the local store owners were stuck with product from 2000 that just wouldn't go anywhere. You picked up one of these 3pp books, flipped through it, and immediately got the impression that a 14-year-old with more money and enthusiasm than imagination had thrown these things out on the shelf. Being that our local game shops were run by tabletop gamers, they were well aware of the fact that what they'd ordered had been overhyped and now they were stuck with poorly-written schlock. When our local gaming shops went under (due mostly to being unable to compete with Amazon's prices and shipping), the vast majority of their third party stock was the same stuff they'd had for five years... and wouldn't even sell at fire sale prices.
The initial 3pp glut, the craptastic quality it flooded the market with, and the brand degradation that it caused were a real concern... at least in this market. I'd be very surprised if WotC's caution with the current license didn't come from at least a bit of an attempt at reclaiming their brand name's geek cred.
Last edited by Draksila; 19th June 2009 at 06:57 AM..
Reason: Further Thoughts
It's a tough economy, and the competition is tough. I thought Necro was up to the challenge like Goodman, but I guess they are not. It sounds to me like they are blaming others and making excuses instead of rising to the challenge. Ah well, too bad.
It's a tough economy, and the competition is tough. I thought Necro was up to the challenge like Goodman, but I guess they are not. It sounds to me like they are blaming others and making excuses instead of rising to the challenge. Ah well, too bad.
Not to me. It seems to me that they are looking at reality and realizing that the bar is high. Clark commented that a couple of products might see print (I still am expecting a Tome of Horrors 4E) and he might go to a PDF market.
The basic fact is that whatever internal struggles there were with the GSL, the entire circumstances put a big dent in 3rd party plans. Combine it with the other challenges that everyone is facing, and "rising to the challenge" moves from a tough fight to tilting at windmills.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
It's a tough economy, and the competition is tough. I thought Necro was up to the challenge like Goodman, but I guess they are not. It sounds to me like they are blaming others and making excuses instead of rising to the challenge. Ah well, too bad.
What competition? The whole point is there is almost no 3pp anymore. Other than Goodman Games, how many 4th ed specific 3rd party PRINT material is out there?
The Necro guys were some of the biggest cheerleaders for the new edition, until the GSL fiasco. Even now, they want to put out some product, but the stiffling GSL (and lack of Character Builder support, I'm guessing) pretty much nixes any printed books. Since their whole gaming company is a hobby and not a primary source of income, why should they bother? Instead of "excuses", I see how WotC slammed the door in the face of a company that made quality products promoting their core line, and even up until recently was a staunch supporter of the new edition. They WANTED to help, and was pretty much handed a license that they knew, as practicing lawyers in their day jobs, was potentially a poison pill.
Of course, as a Pathfinder fan, this is potentially good news for me.
Not to me. It seems to me that they are looking at reality and realizing that the bar is high. Clark commented that a couple of products might see print (I still am expecting a Tome of Horrors 4E) and he might go to a PDF market.
The basic fact is that whatever internal struggles there were with the GSL, the entire circumstances put a big dent in 3rd party plans. Combine it with the other challenges that everyone is facing, and "rising to the challenge" moves from a tough fight to tilting at windmills.
I don't know of any businesses right now that are not facing similar, or even worse, challenges. Hard time getting retailers to carry your product? Hard time finding distributors to distribute your product? Hard time getting financing to produce your product? These are not unique problems. They are the same problems just about every business is facing right now.
Those who are up to it find ways to overcome the difficulties. Those not, complain that something other than themselves is to blame for their inability to succeed.
What competition? The whole point is there is almost no 3pp anymore. Other than Goodman Games, how many 4th ed specific 3rd party PRINT material is out there?.
I've seen Expeditious Retreat Press and Mongoose out there. I am surprised I haven't seen the Creature Collection from Fiery Dragon out there. I also have seen one or two products from small publishers as well.
Still, not too much and it really doesn't seem to be displayed prominently.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
I don't know of any businesses right now that are not facing similar, or even worse, challenges. Hard time getting retailers to carry your product? Hard time finding distributors to distributor your product? Hard time getting financing to produce your product? These are not unique problems. They are the same problems just about every business is facing right now.
Those who are up to it find ways to overcome the difficulties. Those not, complain that something other than themselves is to blame for their inability to succeed.
Or C) those that don't HAVE to in order to feed their families drop sideline hobby projects and focus on their money-making careers.
I've seen Expeditious Retreat Press and Mongoose out there. I am surprised I haven't seen the Creature Collection from Fiery Dragon out there. I also have seen one or two products from small publishers as well.
Still, not too much and it really doesn't seem to be displayed prominently.
Exactly. Almost none, and the top 4 or 5 from 3rd ed aren't on that list (Necromancer Games, Green Ronin, Paizo, Sword & Sorcery/WW).
The pendulum swung a bit too far in the other direction, if you are anyone but the WotC authors of the GSL, IMHO.
I don't think it was just the GSL. I think Clark was assuming more of a continuation of the open gaming environment of the 3E era, as Necromancer games prided itself on the old school feel. 4E is a very specific sort of game, far more so than any previous edition of D&D. It doesn't really lend itself to alternate interpretations or the "old school" Necromancer feel, and the GSL basically disallows you to reinvent the wheel with 4E. So the combination of the GSL being restricting in a business/IP sense, 4E being contrary to the "flavor" of Necromancer, and the GSL restricting the ability to rewrite 4E failed to live up to Necromancer's expectations.
This is my position as well. The mismanaged introduction of the GSL is worthy of a lot of blame, but there also seems to be an underlying cultural shift towards more official, more codified, more fine-tuned gaming instead of the fairly free market of ideas that characterised 3.0. Looking at ENWorld or RPGNet's D&D subforum, I am not seeing a buzz for 3rd party products that promise a different play experience, while people are still passionately debating the merits of various 4e rulebooks. Around 2001, ENWorld was awash with discussions over Sword&Sorcery's product, the pentagram on Relics&Rituals, first edition feel, Green Ronin and all that; today, this doesn't seem to be the case.
The second point is that with 4e, Wizards pretty much massacred Necromancer's niche and split its market. If you like "1st edition feel" or "old school", it is often very hard to like 4e's supposed innovations, or even recognise the game as a legitimate D&D edition. Sure, there are lots of people who fall into this category, but I'd estimate there were at least as many who jumped ship or just quietly walked away. It is a hard game to write old school support for.
Third, what remained of Necro's niche is now efficiently served by Goodman Games (although I consider their products to be more hit and miss) and Expeditious Retreat Press. It is not easy to return to the field, especially as a hobby company that effectively hasn't published new books for years now.
All in all, I have a lot of symapthy for Clark, but they are in a bit of a predicament. I would love to see some long-promised classics (e.g. The Sword of Air or Treasure Maps and Lairs), and generally more low-maintenance, low-pagecount products, but I am skeptical about their viability in today's environment.
__________________ "5. If they do not wish to take a few risks, their characters should stay home and become shopkeepers and farmers.
Then wish them luck!" -- Gary Gygax: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
"Dragons are so Beowulf! Should DnD be in the business of selling 1200 year-olds back their childhood? Sheesh." -- gizmo33, on the power of nostalgia
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