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My 6 players are in a kind of annoying situation without knowing it, i as a dm want them to have fun, challenge them and not punish them for how things went.. so i am in need of some advice..
My players are running Keep on the Shadowfell, they cleared level one totally and are now down on level 2. They fought the hobgoblins in area 12, Splug betrayed them there and left to area 13/14 where the hobgoblin warchief is.
Here comes the catch.. My players directly went to area 15 (the cube) after area 12, they fought the cube and rested in its dark corridors..
Now they left area 15, and went straight into area 16 (the trap room) and now they dealt with a few traps and opened the door to the south (area 17, the zombie room)
This is were we stopped last session and my players knowing will fight the zombies.. and than head into the area 18 (orcus underpriest) and then to 19, fighting Kalarel..
Now the warchief is in service of Kalarel, stop all intruders so the most logic thing is that the warchief holds back until the party has started fighting the zombies, and than flank them.. But all the hobgoblins from area 13/14 and the zombies is going to be overkill..
But ignoring the baddy's from 13/14 seems unlogical..
I was thinking about letting my players fight everyone, they think they die but they are all going to be knocked out and brought to Kalarel, wake up in a corner after 6 hours (they are full hp, daily's and stuff back) Kalarel is on the brink of succeeding his ritual, the players must break free from simple restrains (some simple rope) and they can go all out on Kalarel and maybe some extra hobgoblin guards from 13/14..
And when they defeat Kalarel they only have to fight a bit of zombies and hobgoblins (if they did not flee after Kalarel's death) on the way back..
I useally run simple straightforward adventures and i dont want to slaughter my pc's but they should also learn that they should check all area's before going further to prevent this kind of situation..
Anyone having other tips for me? My players are combat orientated but lack tactics
Having them be captured rather than killed seems reasonable; if PCs can KO at will it seems fine for NPCs to do also; you just say that a 'dead' PC is irrevocably unconscious.
Personally I tend more to the side of running the fight the way you think it ought to be, and let the PCs either retreat, win through luck & good tactics, or die. Defeat can be more fun than victory if it doesn't happen often.
Do they know that there's the Warchief and more Hobgoblins in that direction?
If they don't, then simply remove them.
If the PCs don't know they were there, then they don't have to be.
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but they should also learn that they should check all area's before going further to prevent this kind of situation..
Why? Why do they need to kill everything in order to proceed?
Kalarel is trying to conduct a ritual. The pressure is on. It makes more sense to get to the big guy before he does his bad thing, instead of checking every closet before going down.
Unless they ENJOY cleaning an entire dungeon out, then don't punish them for not doing it. Make it interesting, story wise (The hobgoblins retreat, attack the town/grab slaves; they seal the PCs in so they can't retreat, etc).
Alternatively, you could have a hobgoblin/zombie battle. Just remove the Ghoul from the room, fill the room with normal zombies/rotters, and reduce a few hobgoblins. The PCs are fully rested, they have their dailies, make the encounter fairly rough. That way you get the point across, you get them flanked, and it's still balanced.
I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think that your warchief and his band would avoid the zombie room as much as possible. Maybe they wait until the PCs have dealt with the zombies, then attack when the coast is clear. It's what I'd do if I were a superstitious, mercenary hobgoblin. Either the zombies soften them up for me, or, better yet, they take care of the problem for me; either way I have the advantage without having to get close to those undead monstrosities.
Capture is definately an option. I would use it as a kind of last resort though. Give the players a good chance to notice the Hobgoblins before they attack (they aren't stealthy and your sure to have a player or two with a passive 20 in a party of six).
Have the Warchief be completely overconfident as well and hang back, laughing at the PC's as he sends in his troops. In addition remind the PC's that the doors dont have a lock, but they are sturdy, 4 PC's can tackle the undead, especially if you have good AoE and set up inside the doorway. Two of the strongest remaining PC's can close and bolster the doors, using any staves, polearms, even swords, to help good old shoulder power keep the doors closed.
Don't tell them about using the doors, just give them a good description. If they use just one PC to try to block them give them a good heads up as the PC barely manages to hold the doors when battered the first time.
Having them be captured rather than killed seems reasonable; if PCs can KO at will it seems fine for NPCs to do also; you just say that a 'dead' PC is irrevocably unconscious.
Personally I tend more to the side of running the fight the way you think it ought to be, and let the PCs either retreat, win through luck & good tactics, or die. Defeat can be more fun than victory if it doesn't happen often.
These characters are there first and they finally start to learn the basics, so if i kill them now they need to restart learning different characters so keeping them alive would be better (they could still die in situations here after)
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Originally Posted by Rechan
Do they know that there's the Warchief and more Hobgoblins in that direction?
If they don't, then simply remove them.
If the PCs don't know they were there, then they don't have to be.
Why? Why do they need to kill everything in order to proceed?
Kalarel is trying to conduct a ritual. The pressure is on. It makes more sense to get to the big guy before he does his bad thing, instead of checking every closet before going down.
Unless they ENJOY cleaning an entire dungeon out, then don't punish them for not doing it. Make it interesting, story wise (The hobgoblins retreat, attack the town/grab slaves; they seal the PCs in so they can't retreat, etc).
Alternatively, you could have a hobgoblin/zombie battle. Just remove the Ghoul from the room, fill the room with normal zombies/rotters, and reduce a few hobgoblins. The PCs are fully rested, they have their dailies, make the encounter fairly rough. That way you get the point across, you get them flanked, and it's still balanced.
They don't know the hobgoblins are there, and i don't mind if they skip parts of a dungeon or not but i as a player would not go deep into a dungeon before knowing where are way's in and out and what i leave behind me..
If i reduce the ghoul/hobgoblins and let them flank and make it a rough encounter they want to rest afterwards before going down to Kalarel..
I could indeed let the hobgoblins retreat and take some slaves, does give them a good lead to H2-Thunderspire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastrd
I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think that your warchief and his band would avoid the zombie room as much as possible. Maybe they wait until the PCs have dealt with the zombies, then attack when the coast is clear. It's what I'd do if I were a superstitious, mercenary hobgoblin. Either the zombies soften them up for me, or, better yet, they take care of the problem for me; either way I have the advantage without having to get close to those undead monstrosities.
The situation would be that the players would be stuck in the south end of the trap room fighting zombies and hobgoblins would be coming from the north..
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMaligor
Capture is definately an option. I would use it as a kind of last resort though. Give the players a good chance to notice the Hobgoblins before they attack (they aren't stealthy and your sure to have a player or two with a passive 20 in a party of six).
Have the Warchief be completely overconfident as well and hang back, laughing at the PC's as he sends in his troops. In addition remind the PC's that the doors dont have a lock, but they are sturdy, 4 PC's can tackle the undead, especially if you have good AoE and set up inside the doorway. Two of the strongest remaining PC's can close and bolster the doors, using any staves, polearms, even swords, to help good old shoulder power keep the doors closed.
Don't tell them about using the doors, just give them a good description. If they use just one PC to try to block them give them a good heads up as the PC barely manages to hold the doors when battered the first time.
One player has passive perception 18, the other 5 around 12/13 (i know) the door to the north is locked (automatic when a trap is sprung) so i could let the hobgoblins try to open it (with no succes) and let the hobgoblins guard the area infront of it..
Pc's go down to Kalarel, and when they fight things begin to crumble and and the hobgoblins flee and players to (the door stands open cause a part of the hallway collapsed and crushed the door)..
If i reduce the ghoul/hobgoblins and let them flank and make it a rough encounter they want to rest afterwards before going down to Kalarel..
I could indeed let the hobgoblins retreat and take some slaves, does give them a good lead to H2-Thunderspire
That's what I did in a similar situation; it worked very well. I also had the hobgoblins sack Winterhaven on the way out.
I would also say to reduce both groups to be the same encounter level as the zombies would otherwise be on their own, and then (after 1 round, have the creatures from the passed room come and flank them)
Alternatively, if you do go the "knocked out" route, I wouldn't give them back their dailies and everything (i'd probably just give them their encounters, and maybe just hp at bloodied level; I'd probably also not have them in kalerel's place but in some room set up to be a dungeon/cell. thus, they can escape, have some minor fight, and then heal up some before making their way to the kalerel fight)
but, yeah, as someone touched on before -- do go at this with the mentality of 'making the PCs learn to check all the doors', go at it with the mentality of 'what would the bad guys do and how to accomplish it and still have it be fun'
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The war chief has informed Kalarel that their are intruders. Karlarel orders him to delay them, he is finishing the ritual and does not need any more sacrafices.
The War Chief decides use his time to barricading one of the passage ways and uses his forces to delay the Adventurers.
At least this way you won't have to deal with a TPK and the Players get an interesting situation - a little bit of siege warfare. Have lots of equipment left behind that they could make something interesting out off, like a bunch of damaged shields that could be used to create a massive tower riot shield.
Make sure the Hobo defenders pepper the PCs with missiles from behind their barricade whenever a PC pokes his head out or give them a bunch of Alchemist Fire or something nasty from the Adenturers Vault if you have it.
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
"Mercy!? You want MERCY? I'M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!" One of my rituals is soon to be published in Goodman Games's Book of Rituals... Yey...
My advice is to run the NPCs as fully-realized characters.
But how does the warchief know the PCs are there?
Anyways, if he does, drop the hobgoblins on them. They may lose the fight, yeah. Too bad. D&D isn't pretty sometimes. That's what makes player choice matter - and not just in the tactical frame, but in the larger, more strategic arena.
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-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
The game has a good ruleset to deal with issues just like this one.
Hobgoblin Warchief and Allies - may or may not know the party is there
Zombies - brains....
Kalarel and Co - sacrificing away
I would tee this up as a skill challenge of sorts. If the PC's can navigate it successfully, using stealth, perception, and insight, they can get two or three reasonable fights. If not, they are going to get gang-tackled. Just try to not have the combined encounter be greater than the "daily" tough encounter listed in the DMG, which I believe is Level +7. This is probably an EL 9 or 10 for your party at this point. That's a lot of xp's to play with.
I agree, if they should fail, then there is the chance that they will be in a very tough, very big encounter, with very poor tactical considerations (no exits, flanked, outnumbered, outclassed).
I think i shall not adjust the hobgoblins or the zombies.. The players attack the zombies, the hobgoblins burst in, chief over confidant but as he see's the players are laying the smacketh down he orders his allies to leave the place and betray Kalarel and go to thunderspire..
This way it will be tough but do-able..
If my players manage to screw up i can take them prisoner and have Kalarel finish the job and let my players fix it when they free themselves up...
I think i shall not adjust the hobgoblins or the zombies.. The players attack the zombies, the hobgoblins burst in, chief over confidant but as he see's the players are laying the smacketh down he orders his allies to leave the place and betray Kalarel and go to thunderspire..
This way it will be tough but do-able..
If my players manage to screw up i can take them prisoner and have Kalarel finish the job and let my players fix it when they free themselves up...
I'd be interested to see how this turns out myself.
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