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Does anyone have a good approach for making NPC enemy parties in 4E?
Unfortunately, it's something a bit lacking in the MM's and DMG... You flip through the encounter tables in past editions, and running into rival adventurers was a staple in the 1E DMG encounter tables.
Anyone have thoughts on how to build these types of encounters for 4E?
I guess my issue would be, just statting out the NPC's as normal monters, then giving them a template NPC class, would create a group of "Elites"... 4-6 NPC's, all as elite monsters, will almost always be way too difficult an encounter, right?
Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e PHB?
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There are plenty of representatives of the PHB and PHB2 races (as well as other races) in the MM, MM2, and DDI. You could easily put them together to create an NPC party.
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Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e DMG rules for creating NPCs (pages 186-188)? Compared to creating PCs, it cuts down on the number of powers and eliminates feats. Are there balance concerns? Each NPC seems to count as a level-appropriate (non-elite) monster.
There are plenty of representatives of the PHB and PHB2 races (as well as other races) in the MM, MM2, and DDI. You could easily put them together to create an NPC party.
I realize there are samples in the various MM's, and I've been using them to piece together NPC parties as monsters... but your point about DDI is great idea, and one I'd been overlooking. In many cases the NPC monsters are scaled for you. For instance, Dwarf Bolter is a common 'enemy dwarf fighter' to use in an NPC party, but it's also a L4 monster. But DDI has L2, L3, and L5 versions of the Dwarf Bolter. That'll let me get more use of them.
Dunno about higher levels, but I think DDI will let me pull together NPC parties fairly easily in the level 2-6 range.
Roguerouge... yeah, the PC rules in 4E don't work for monsters... too tough all around. And enemy NPC's in the dungeon are basically monsters.
Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e DMG rules for creating NPCs (pages 186-188)? Compared to creating PCs, it cuts down on the number of powers and eliminates feats. Are there balance concerns? Each NPC seems to count as a level-appropriate (non-elite) monster.
Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e PHB?
I don't think this would be a good idea because of dailies, particularly at higher levels. Unless the DM is playing the NPCs as though they have to complete the adventure, enemy NPCs can blow through all of their dailies with little regard, creating an encounter significantly harder than it's level would suggest (because the PCs have to consider whether they will need their dailies later).
Regarding the OP's question:
Creating a rival party composed fully of elites is certainly an option. If the NPC party is the same size as the PC party you'll end up with a Level +4 encounter (which is quite dangerous but still potentially winnable). Alternately, you could make a smaller and/or lower level party of elites. The elite option makes the rival party a genuine and serious threat, though there is risk of a TPK (unless, of course, the NPCs aren't interested in killing the PCs).
You could also compose the party partially or completely of normal monsters. For example, on MM pgs. 162-163 you'll find the Human Bandit (Rogue), Human Guard (Fighter), Human Berserker (Barbarian), and Human Mage (Wizard). A perfectly viable adventuring party (though light on healing). If you don't want some of them to be human, reskin to fit (shifty for a kobold, etc). If they don't fit the level range you're looking for, level them up or down as need be, or if the gap is too large for that use them as inspiration for creating/reskinning much higher level "monsters". With this option the enemy party is likely to be a less deadly nuisance unless they are much higher level then the PCs or have some special advantage (they plan to hold their attack on the party when the party looks sufficiently softened up).
You could, of course, use both options. When they first encounter the NPCs the NPCs are elite and may very well kick the PCs around the schoolyard (though the PCs certainly have a fighting chance so long as they play smart). Eventually, though the NPCs keep pace with the PCs with regard to level, they lose their elite status (becoming "normal"). At this point, it is the PCs who will have the upper hand (and no doubt be pleased with how far they have come). If you need a way to rationalize the powers the NPCs lose after conversion, simply say that the party has learned to counter those tricks; they try them but fail miserably.
Edit: Or as Pseudopsyche mentioned, use the rules on DMG pgs 186-188.
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Last edited by Fanaelialae; 20th June 2009 at 08:09 PM..
This is just something that popped into my mind while reading, but adding the class templates to a minion might work? I have no clue how the results would be, but my thinking is:
Regular monster + template = elite
Minion + template = regular monster?
I create NPC enemy parties all the time with the DMG. They are my favorite encounters, and my PCs seem to like them a lot as well. Very fun and versatile, a great way to preview powers and classes in the game, and fairly different than most monsters (particularly in their ability to heal and adaptability).
Does anyone have a good approach for making NPC enemy parties in 4E?
Use the DMG rules, and please note that many of the examples are quite poor (often missing the level-based bonuses). This gave me a hard time actually learning the rules.
I don't understand why you would need encounter tables. You can either determine what the NPC party is like yourself, or just give it one defender, one striker, one controller and one leader.
IMO using the elites is a bad idea, as they tend to lack offense, often resulting in longer, boring combats. (Same sort of issues with solos; their offense is only a little bit better than elites, but their defenses are somewhat higher and their hit points are much higher.)
If you don't use the PH rules, the NPCs get fewer dailies (reasonable) and fewer abilities overall (making designing them quite a bit easier, and probably more balanced too).
4-6 elite monsters aren't necessarily overpowering; it depends on their levels and a bunch of other stuff, but such an encounter could easily be overpowered (for the party's level and capabilities).
Use the DMG rules, and please note that many of the examples are quite poor (often missing the level-based bonuses). This gave me a hard time actually learning the rules.
Let me ask you something, using the DMG NPC creation rules, are you making the NPC equivalent to a "standard" monster for XP calculation purposes? I like those rules, but it's not clear how they correlate to the monster creation rules just a page early - I'm thinking a page 187 NPC is probably just a standard monster.
Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e DMG rules for creating NPCs (pages 186-188)? Compared to creating PCs, it cuts down on the number of powers and eliminates feats. Are there balance concerns? Each NPC seems to count as a level-appropriate (non-elite) monster.
Just want to agree over here - I've found that the 4E NPC rules are often overlooked and underused, but they let you easily put together NPCs that clearly have class capabilities without being too powerful for the party to face or too difficult for the DM to run.
Also note that these rules are seperate from applying class template rules found a few pages earlier, which produce elite enemies rather than standard foes.
Okay, I'll bite: why wouldn't you just create a party using the 4e PHB?
Because it's too much work to prepare, and too much work to run. Monsters have much simpler rules for creation and running.
The class templates in the DMG give you the "role" of each class. Pick an at-will and an encounter power or two and slap them on a non-elite NPC monster with the proper role & numbers. You're done.
Precisely what I did when I had to come up with a rival adventuring party as a foil for the PCs.
Cherry picked a nice mix of PC class/monster powers (the "Rogue" got a couple of powers from the PHb and one power from the Bugbear entry in the MM---Strangle in this case).
Unfortunately, the damned PC's *talked* their way out of the confrontation instead of fighting it out. The bastards.
Why would you worry if the encounter is balanced, is every single encounter in the world self-adjusting to the level of the PC's? Shouldn't the power level of what the PC's encounter be based more on what should be there? A squad of warriors going to join a crusade could be all fighter types and not a balanced party, and probably low level but seriously outnumbering the PCs. A famous wizard and his entourage may have a single very high level wizard, maybe a few lower level but still decently skilled apprentices, some low-level hireling flunkies/servants with marginal combat skill, and maybe a single cleric to tend to the wizard as a confessor/personal physician. If the PC's run across a party much larger or more skilled (higher level) than them, they probably should look more into hiding, negotiating, bribing, not antagonizing the other party, and not engaging them in combat.
Also, while I'm not exactly up on 4e design, why is it bad to use PHB PC rules for NPC adventurers because of daily powers? Prior editions of D&D had NPCs with daily powers, it was called spell slots, and most DMs I know assume that typically NPC spellcasters have a full loadout of powers unless they explicitly have a reason to be low (like had just left a battle before encountering the PCs).
Balance as a baseline is nice. There's nothing preventing a DM from using a higher or lower powered encounter, but they probably want to know that before they run the encounter.
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Also, while I'm not exactly up on 4e design, why is it bad to use PHB PC rules for NPC adventurers because of daily powers? Prior editions of D&D had NPCs with daily powers, it was called spell slots, and most DMs I know assume that typically NPC spellcasters have a full loadout of powers unless they explicitly have a reason to be low (like had just left a battle before encountering the PCs).
And that was a problem in some games. A spellcaster would waste all their bluffs and/or simply blast out their highest level spells without worrying (much) about later encounters.
IIRC in 2e NPC mages were supposed to have 1d% of their daily spell slots available at any one time, causing me to wonder ... how exactly did you do that math? Is a 7th-level spell slot equal to a 3rd-level? Etc. (And no, I'm not 100% sure that rule existed. I only DMed 2e twice that I recall.)
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