General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Xechnao, you get a little wordy and your point isn't always clear, so bear with me if I'm wrong, but what you are describing sound a lot like what White Wolf's World of Darkness games provide. Now, while I would call those games newbie/casual friendly one wonders why they haven't taken over the casual RPG world? I would argue that they don't offer the viceral oomph that D&D's level of action/violence provides. I would also argue that the level of conflict and violence to achieve that level of viceral engagement requires more mechanics than what you describe.
What's 'real' in an RPG is what's in the shared imagined experience of the players and the memories that come from that. The rules have always been an adjunct to help the GM come up with judgements quickly and consistently. Elevating them from an adjunct to the game's defining focus would only appeal to a very narrow slice of potential players.
I think you are putting "inspiration" on a pedestal here, and particularly putting too much on fluff.
By inspiration I mean interesting storytelling. Storytelling not as of narrative fluff but rather as a sensational message which excites the consumer. It could be a cover about a hero fighting a huge dragon or the dwarf and his bear enduring voyage in the wow video commercial. Or the explosive rage of the orc and the pillaged land in the same commercial.
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Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion
Mechanics say more than fluff, because actions speak louder than words.
Its one thing to say or imagine something, and its another to actually do it. In game mechanics terms, to take an action and see it have an effect on the game world. Mechanics provide that.
Mechanics provide this message to the hardcore gamer and fan. A newbie does not consider all these mechanics necessary for the exciting action you are talking about and this is why he is avoiding the game. OTOH if he perceives the right dose of mechanics or effort to achieve the actions and the effects you are talking about he would want to bother himself with the game.
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Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion
To add to this discussion, one thing casual play absolutely must have is the ability to accomodate a bad DM. This is important for spontaneous game generation, where a group of kids gets together, buys a few books, and starts playing without any outside input. Or, when a fresh faced player walks into a semi-public event like RPGA. A game that can produce acceptable results with a mediocre or inexperienced DM is a better fit for serving casual players.
Absolutely agreed. Furthermore a game could even be designed in such a way to support gaming without a DM.
I feel the need to point out that MMORPGs evolved from the desire to play a tabletop game online. Those ancient (Sorry!) MUDs came from D&D players who loved their computers, and wanted to put both together. Ultima Online, one of the premere and most famous MMORPGs that was made - and still continues, shockingly enough - was created by Garriott in an attempt to make the feel of tabletop gaming more idespread and universal amongst non-D&D gamers.
Video games come from D&D. Just about every RPG, be it from the US, Europe, or Japan, has D&D somewhere in its roots - and most non-RPGs do as well. From D&D came the dungeon crawl, which begat Wizardry, which begat Dragon Quest, which begat every jRPG in existance. From D&D came Ultima, which begat ID Software, which begat Doom, which begat the entire FPS genre. From D&D came the MUD, which begat Everquest, which begat - you guessed it - World of Warcraft.
In fact, Wizardry and Ultima all but created the entire RPG genre, from all over the world - and Ultima went on to do even more to inspire other developers to create games. All because Garriott went to a computer camp and played D&D.
As technology increases, I don't think tabletop gaming will die - it will just change. I already mentioned AR emerging and how that could change things, but look at what we have know that didn't previously exist thanks to the internet. Online games done in chat rooms, play by posts in forums - this stuff seems ordinary and mundane, but they're things that aren't even 20 years old yet.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Xechnao, you get a little wordy and your point isn't always clear, so bear with me if I'm wrong, but what you are describing sound a lot like what White Wolf's World of Darkness games provide. Now, while I would call those games newbie/casual friendly one wonders why they haven't taken over the casual RPG world? I would argue that they don't offer the viceral oomph that D&D's level of action/violence provides. I would also argue that the level of conflict and violence to achieve that level of viceral engagement requires more mechanics than what you describe.
These games cover a tiny niche of the horror superhero or superantihero: playing as vampires, werewolves etch. Furthermore I would consider their mechanics needlessly complicated too in respect to what they provide, that is what they spontaneously allow you to do in terms of effects and situations such as action you are talking about.
Any level of conflict and visceral engagement requires the right set of rules and a design made to deliver them, not more mechanics. An optimized design will deliver these rules with no baggage. A derived design and not a specialized one for what you want to do -as happens to be the case with D&D- will have additional unnecessary baggage.
Last edited by xechnao; 25th June 2009 at 01:50 AM..
I feel the need to point out that MMORPGs evolved from the desire to play a tabletop game online. Those ancient (Sorry!) MUDs came from D&D players who loved their computers, and wanted to put both together. Ultima Online, one of the premere and most famous MMORPGs that was made - and still continues, shockingly enough - was created by Garriott in an attempt to make the feel of tabletop gaming more idespread and universal amongst non-D&D gamers.
Video games come from D&D. Just about every RPG, be it from the US, Europe, or Japan, has D&D somewhere in its roots - and most non-RPGs do as well. From D&D came the dungeon crawl, which begat Wizardry, which begat Dragon Quest, which begat every jRPG in existance. From D&D came Ultima, which begat ID Software, which begat Doom, which begat the entire FPS genre. From D&D came the MUD, which begat Everquest, which begat - you guessed it - World of Warcraft.
Nobody is contesting this, although I'll point out that there were a few more steps involved (you're forgetting the era of the single-player, non-networked CRPG, which lasted for quite a long time). Nor is there a clear, single line of descent; genetic material is constantly being swapped back and forth among tabletop games and computer games.
But WoW has evolved tremendously along the way. It is not a tabletop RPG crudely ported to the computer. It is a creature of the computer now, adapted to thrive in that environment - and in the process it has managed to reach far more players than D&D ever has.
The modern MMO and the modern tabletop game share common ancestors, but they are very different things.
Keep in mind that something like 95% of players will never see end game content.
Interestingly, that trend has been almost completely reversed in the latest WoW expansion, with the vast majority of gamers having set foot in the first couple of end-game raids (for those not familiar, end-game refers to content that you run after you've reached maximum level). Blizzard definitely took a step back and said, "this is not good enough", and made a major philosophocal shift in their approach to the game.
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
The pedant in me demands to know how you draw this link, but it doesn't invalidate your otherwise excellent post.
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
Didn't Ultima Underworld inspire them to write their first 3d engine for pcs?
The pedant is satisfied! That's true, at least according to Wikipedia. I did not know that.
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
I'm on the scene, and I have been for years. I do both, I talk to people that do both, and I do so on a wide scale. It's the naysayers that are in the dark.
Naysayer to what? Your post to me read as if the developers of MMORPG's are somehow superior to developers of Tabletop games. This is not in any way true. This is what I am addressing. Despite the little desire I have to play WOW I am quite well informed. More so than people that play regularly. My sources are top editors from Tentonhammer and mmorpg.com. I am always happy to provide names in private.
WOW is directly sprouted from TRPG's. Even the developers say so. If you want to speak to the success of MMORPG's over TRPG's, well there is an obvious difference MMO's win. I think the only reason they win is accessability and has nothing to do with development. Comparing D&D to WOW on this level is like saying the LORD OF THE RINGS movie is Vastly prefered over the books because the movies make more money. It is simply a different medium. It is more accessable to the general audience.
It in no way means that film is superior to books.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
And yet WOW is far more popular and enjoys far great commercial success than D&D ever has, or ever will.
Correct.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
The reason is that, quite frankly, players in general prefer what WOW offers over the tabletop counterpart.
Video game players prefer that yes. Not Roleplaying players.
Most of the WOW players I talk to (And I talk to a handful, not the millions that WOW has) would prefer to play Tabletop RPG's at a given moment (Note I am not saying... cancel WOW account and play D&D over WOW), instead of playing online.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
When WOW guilds start holding their own conventions (and they do; mine's on its second annual convention this year), that's when you have something that the common gamer actually wants.
I am not sure how the above statement supports "proof of what gamers want". One can find a convention for anythign these days.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
WOW (and all other CRPGs & MMORPGs) may not provide what TRPGs are about, but their superior commercial success and popular acceptance means that what TRPGs are about is not what the common gamer wants.
WOW also brought to the front a market share of people that were not into roleplaying but into a simple gaming experience. Many of the millions of people that play wow are not even potential markets for any other sort of game.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
It doesn't matter if I can't play when I want, how I want, because I have to herd a bunch of cats into the same space at the same time. Time not spent playing is lost value; anything utterly dependent upon Network Externalities derives most of its value from not only the size of the user network, but also by how frequently you can utilize that network. I can play WOW damn near at any time, and I will be able to get a group for any group content I wish to enjoy; I can't do that for any TRPG.
If I want to play the game, and the common gamer does, the option that provides me superior convenience of access wins.
Right. Accessability.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
That just means, to the common gamer, that you can play through that RPG scenario again. It's a feature, not a bug, and actually adds value for him; if were really that bad, no one would do it- and yet it's still the thing that put (and helps to keep) WOW on the top of the MMO heap.
Actually I think the reason they do it is because there is no way around it. My point is this is great from the gamist perspective, but not from the roleplaying perspective.
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Originally Posted by Corinth
The TRPG market is better off letting the current common gamer go entirely, and instead targeting a new audience that actually clamors for TRPGs in the same way that common gamers clamor for MMOs, but that requires that the businessmen in the TRPG business reassess what it is that they product truly offers vs. what it takes to actually use it (and to stop arguing in favor of the competition).
I could not agree with any statement you have made more than this. It is absolutely true. D&D will not get people that want the WOW experience. What they will get are the roleplayers that discover they cannot get the story satisfaction they want out of MMORPGS.
WOW also brought to the front a market share of people that were not into roleplaying but into a simple gaming experience. Many of the millions of people that play wow are not even potential markets for any other sort of game.
Why are you saying this? It does not make sense to me. There are other simple games around but they play WoW instead.
I'm sure there's a name for this fallacy, but I don't know it. Anyhow, this idea that a new medium will eclipse all previous media hasn't held up in my (admittedly short) experience.
Plays should have been killed by movies. Movies should have been killed by television.
But I did a Google search and somehow it seems that I can still by tickets for that archaic "play" thing at someplace called Broadway. Or in any small town, for that matter.
I think that consumer trends show us growing more fractioned as a people, than less. There was a time when all of America watched the same television show at night. Now, programs that niche markets number in the hundreds, if not thousands.
Same, too, for RPGs and MMORGs. They deliver different experiences, and there are niches for both.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
I think that consumer trends show us growing more fractioned as a people, than less. There was a time when all of America watched the same television show at night. Now, programs that niche markets number in the hundreds, if not thousands.
This is my belief too. OTOH WoW has been grabbing a very big share of the market that many niches compete about. I think a very informative measure would be the average hours subscribers spend in playing WoW in comparison with other similar hobby activities they have or they might be having.
Last edited by xechnao; 25th June 2009 at 07:08 PM..
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