General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I've always felt that one of the bad things that came out of the OGL boom was the marginalization of all the D&D/d20 alternatives. D&D isn't for everybody(and I'm glad WotC is now embracing that), and people should have alternatives. I'd just rather those alternatives not also be D&D, and rather not have my D&D watered down to be able to cater to thsoe people.
I'd rather the players who are looking for not-D&D to look outside the OGL for a change.
So here's hoping for a non-D&D, non-d20 boom!
Oh I am so right there with you. But give it some time. The 4e change was so abrupt that I cant say I have bad feelings about Paizo. Besides, I believe Paizo fans are more prone to buy something different than say the 3.xe-OGL fans of the past. Could be wrong though. I definitely hope not
Oh I am so right there with you. But give it some time. The 4e change was so abrupt that I cant say I have bad feelings about Paizo. Besides, I believe Paizo fans are more prone to buy something different than say the 3.xe-OGL fans of the past. Could be wrong though. I definitely hope not
The fact that most of the non-D&D RPG community was focused on the OGL doesn't help matters for non-d20 gaming, and it again will take time to recover from that.
The fact that most of the non-D&D RPG community was focused on the OGL doesn't help matters for non-d20 gaming, and it again will take time to recover from that.
I wonder if some of that follows along the same lines as the housing bubble. In other words, "sticking with something that in the past has had such success, so why would you buck the trend?", kind of thing. Which can be a good thing in the short term, but has looming consequences if true.
In addition, as has been said before, WotC leaves behind a huge wake of customer base that still plays and pays, so the market is there for the taking. Its reasonable to expect those companies to try to jump in and grab a share.
I see 4E as more of a gateway to transition to the next type of RPG player. If you can successfully bridge the computer and table top crowds at some point, the market for your products opens up exponentially.
I don't see that as a "good" thing from an old guy standpoint and a love for the interaction that occurs across the table top. But its like any force of nature that changes what was, to what is, and what will be.
The fact that most of the non-D&D RPG community was focused on the OGL doesn't help matters for non-d20 gaming, and it again will take time to recover from that.
I'm a little confused about this past non-D&D = OGL mentality. Last time I checked White Wolf with it's WoD game had the second largest market share of rpg sales, and it's definitely not a d20/OGL game...when did this change? Perhaps your view on the past rpg scene are more influenced by the people you know, and their preferences, as opposed to what the wider gaming audience was actually purchasing at the time.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
I'm a little confused about this past non-D&D = OGL mentality. Last time I checked White Wolf with it's WoD game had the second largest market share of rpg sales, and it's definitely not a d20/OGL game...when did this change?
I doubt it did, taking into account not only WW but also SJG and some of the other, larger non-D&D/d20/OGL brands/publishers of the period.
"The forces that are tearing apart the tabletop RPG player networks are utterly outside of Wizards' control".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrakeh
If it were me, I'd guess that he was referring to either the rapid evolution of electronic entertainment media (which must be one hell of a force to compete with) or the dwindling current fanbase of table-top RPGs effectively fighting with itself on many different fronts (which does nothing to attract newcomers to the hobby).
To compliment jdrakeh's comment, I also think that, in an age where video games, board games and card games have become more and more developed in regards to the provided experience, with a relatively short set up and play process, the table-top RPGs have suffered from having more complex (cumbersome?) learning and set up requirements (again, relatively). Even for a simple adventure, a GM/DM has to devote at least some time to read it beforehand and have a minimum of preparation to run it. Let alone a full campaign.
Also, as it has been mentioned, real life commitments play against the possibilities of meeting regularly, at least for people after certain age group.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: These past lines are solely based on personal perceptions and should not be interpreted as the result of any seriously conducted research... as most things on the internet.
__________________ "Many point out that this battle against the darkness is an impossible one, and they may well be right. Impossible or not, however, the battle for righteousness is one that only a few heroes are brave enough to undertake"
I see 4E as more of a gateway to transition to the next type of RPG player. If you can successfully bridge the computer and table top crowds at some point, the market for your products opens up exponentially.
I don't see that as a "good" thing from an old guy standpoint and a love for the interaction that occurs across the table top. But its like any force of nature that changes what was, to what is, and what will be.
I would not be worried if I were you. You do not need a software to cast to the new generation, or any generation for that matter, the magic of tabletops. Wotc uses it because of its current game and business model. But you really do not need such a game to bridge to the computer crowd. This is my opinion. The only thing you should do is just accept the fact that the two have to co-exist -as it was the case of the 80s or 90s- and try to ride on this point of view. Besides Baldur's Gate did help 3e I think.
Of my nephews and nieces, they're more interested in playing video games. It is as if they never played any board games or even cards. WotC has done very poor job of reaching out to kids and/or teenagers these days.
I remember when I was a kid, TSR had ads in all kinds of areas like comic books, Saturday cartoons, etc ... These days I would question the effectiveness of mediums like comic books, TV, etc ... It seems like kids don't even read comic books anymore, and hardly even watch any TV. Reaching them online via banner ads seems to be largely ineffective. It's as if kids are completely "immune" to online advertisements of any form these days.
It is kind of difficult to advertise to the youth in today's instant gratification culture. The age of the DVR means no more commericials unless you really just want to watch them. If the kids are not reading much then print ads are wasted too. Banner ads are almost mentally filtered out by most people these days. The only places ads are even semi-effective these days are places that provide a kind of captive audience such as movie theaters, screens in supermarket checkout lines, on public transit or other such areas. Even these are only so good since personal devices swallow up all available attention even in these areas.
I would not be worried if I were you. You do not need a software to cast to the new generation, or any generation for that matter, the magic of tabletops. Wotc uses it because of its current game and business model. But you really do not need such a game to bridge to the computer crowd. This is my opinion. The only thing you should do is just accept the fact that the two have to co-exist -as it was the case of the 80s or 90s- and try to ride on this point of view. Besides Baldur's Gate did help 3e I think.
I wonder though, that if WotC can incorporate the computer "as" the table top, does it change the landscape of the RPG? You can see them attempting that now. Success along this avenue would change the way business was done as more and more companies produce products to support and cash in on that success.
I am not saying that the computer as a table top immediately surplants the magic of what we have today. But if successful, you can see that at some point it could become the norm, and change how pencil and paper RPG's are played.
I would not be worried if I were you. You do not need a software to cast to the new generation, or any generation for that matter, the magic of tabletops. Wotc uses it because of its current game and business model. But you really do not need such a game to bridge to the computer crowd. This is my opinion. The only thing you should do is just accept the fact that the two have to co-exist -as it was the case of the 80s or 90s- and try to ride on this point of view. Besides Baldur's Gate did help 3e I think.
And TOEE helped me learn the 3.0 rules...I may just load that thing up again. It's been a while...
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
I wonder though, that if WotC can incorporate the computer "as" the table top, does it change the landscape of the RPG? You can see them attempting that now. Success along this avenue would change the way business was done as more and more companies produce products to support and cash in on that success.
I am not saying that the computer as a table top immediately surplants the magic of what we have today. But if successful, you can see that at some point it could become the norm, and change how pencil and paper RPG's are played.
I don't think the computer can replace the tabletop. The Character Builder has me starting to think the computer might be able to replace the books. What the Builder does is to combine being a reference(I find it outshines the Compendium in this regard) while actually doing what you would use the books to do. See what this game looks like if we get an Adventure/Encounter builder.
Last edited by thecasualoblivion; 21st June 2009 at 06:58 PM..
I've just closed several of the other threads. Thanks to everyone who's working to keep this one friendly, interesting and on topic.
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I don't think the computer can replace the tabletop. The Character Builder has me starting to think the computer might be able to replace the books.
Unfortunately I think it can. Again, not what I would want to happen. But the computer really does have huge advantages that a traditional table top does not, while having no disadvantages save the face to face magic many have come to enjoy. Even that can be countered as comps become more powerul, vidoe conferencing becomes commonplace, and bandwith issues are solved.
This is of course off topic a bit, but plays into the idea that the 4E and 3E comparisons are apples and oranges.
Unfortunately I think it can. Again, not what I would want to happen. But the computer really does have huge advantages that a traditional table top does not, while having no disadvantages save the face to face magic many have come to enjoy. Even that can be countered as comps become more powerul, vidoe conferencing becomes commonplace, and bandwith issues are solved.
This is of course off topic a bit, but plays into the idea that the 4E and 3E comparisons are apples and oranges.
Unless you are a full-bore computer person, a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way. While a computer savvy person can play D&D on a laptop without slowing the game down, a lesser person can not. The Character Builder on the other hand is easier and faster to use to build characters to almost anyone who is remotely familiar with computers, and it is easier to reference on the whole than a stack of books and Dragon PDFs.
Unfortunately I think it can. Again, not what I would want to happen. But the computer really does have huge advantages that a traditional table top does not, while having no disadvantages save the face to face magic many have come to enjoy. Even that can be countered as comps become more powerul, vidoe conferencing becomes commonplace, and bandwith issues are solved.
This is of course off topic a bit, but plays into the idea that the 4E and 3E comparisons are apples and oranges.
No digital media can replace personal contact and its possibilities to play a game developed for that matter.
Unless you are a full-bore computer person, a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way. While a computer savvy person can play D&D on a laptop without slowing the game down, a lesser person can not. The Character Builder on the other hand is easier and faster to use to build characters to almost anyone who is remotely familiar with computers, and it is easier to reference on the whole than a stack of books and Dragon PDFs.
I agree with you whole heartedly at this point. But the emphasis on things like the Character Builder are just starting points, or building blocks. Which is pretty darn smart if you ask me. Integrating them into traditional table tops is just the beginning.
For example I now use the monster builder to build and/or print some of my creations while referencing with the compendium. Its alot easier than going through all the books. Its still limited, and has yet to become elite and solo friendly. But that will change quickly.
They don't. Last I checked, the age group that reads the most comics is 18-20something.
Exactly.
It's actually a big "gloom and doom" trait on comic book boards. It even gets worse...the age group is 20-30 and tracking upwards et there doesn't seem to be anything either of the big two companies can do...
You would've thought with the monster movies they released last year (Iron Man and Dark Knight) that there would be an upswing in sales for those two titles.
NADA..absolutely nothing and really, if having the 3rd or 4th most successfu movie of all time can't get people to read Batman in higher numbers, they are screwed..
It's actually a big "gloom and doom" trait on comic book boards. It even gets worse...the age group is 20-30 and tracking upwards et there doesn't seem to be anything either of the big two companies can do...
You would've thought with the monster movies they released last year (Iron Man and Dark Knight) that there would be an upswing in sales for those two titles.
NADA..absolutely nothing and really, if having the 3rd or 4th most successfu movie of all time can't get people to read Batman in higher numbers, they are screwed..
At this point, Batman is more then a comic book. It's an entire brand name all in itself. TV shows, the said movies, action figures and a bunch of other stuff will keep Batman in public culture.
__________________ "At best and at worst, it is a waste of time." A Mormon bishop on Dungeons and Dragons
I think the "forces" of Dancey are consumer habits. I read an article a few years ago that says that every social hobby and sport is down from badminton to soccer and poker.
Time is the enemy, not MMORPGs. People lack the time and energy to make a world, create adventures, find a place to play, schedule time with 3 or 4 other people, and then find the time to play.
It's much simpler to turn on the computer when and where you want to play. You can even play for short intervals, 15 to 20 minutes, each day if you want.
It's really not the same thing as RPGs, but can fill a need. My family and friends are trying to get me on PS3 network so we can talk and play online. We live about 10 miles radius from each other; sheeze.
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Last edited by ssampier; 21st June 2009 at 11:20 PM..
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