General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Unless you are a full-bore computer person, a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way. While a computer savvy person can play D&D on a laptop without slowing the game down, a lesser person can not. The Character Builder on the other hand is easier and faster to use to build characters to almost anyone who is remotely familiar with computers, and it is easier to reference on the whole than a stack of books and Dragon PDFs.
FWIW (and it's not worth that much)...
I've played a lot of LFR in the last six months or so, for various and sundry reasons. In the last month, I've been playing some LFR online using MapTool. This is handy because it means I can draw semi-direct comparisons.
The average LFR module I've played online takes between three and four hours; ditto the average LFR module I've played face to face. I was seriously surprised by this.
After some thought, I think it's because certain things are way faster. Less doing math on hit points. Everyone rolls damage dice along with the to hit dice, because that's how it's programmed. Nobody's sitting around trying to total up 2d12 + 1d10 but reroll the d10 if it's a 1 or a 2, oh wait, plus I get my quarry dice. The numbers go really quick.
I also find online slights roleplay to a degree, which means I'm spending the same amount of time on RP but getting less in. Since I moved recently, I'll be continuing my face to face campaign online. I'm very curious to see how the roleplay changes. (And yeah, if it changes too much, it won't be fun any more.)
All THAT said, I don't think using a laptop at a table would be as quick, for various reasons which I'll go into if people care.
After some thought, I think it's because certain things are way faster. Less doing math on hit points. Everyone rolls damage dice along with the to hit dice, because that's how it's programmed. Nobody's sitting around trying to total up 2d12 + 1d10 but reroll the d10 if it's a 1 or a 2, oh wait, plus I get my quarry dice. The numbers go really quick.
The point I was trying to make above is that Wotc should try to fix this in its rpg games. Mechanics should fly a lot faster on a tabletop game, yet the depth of options and possibilities should be as big, solid and well organized if not even more as what games they are doing now. They need a new system that works well with a new system interface based on this philosophy to be able to do this though.
The point I was trying to make above is that Wotc should try to fix this in its rpg games. Mechanics should fly a lot faster on a tabletop game, yet the depth of options and possibilities should be as big, solid and well organized if not even more as what games they are doing now.
Can you give an example of a game which has mechanics that'll inherently be faster on a tabletop than they would online? I can think of some ideas but I don't want to misinterpret you.
Or do you mean that mechanics should fly faster on a tabletop game than they do now? I.e., are you just calling for a simpler game?
They don't. Last I checked, the age group that reads the most comics is 18-20something.
What do you expect, though? I got sticker shock when my 6 year old daughter wanted a spiderman comic-she was into superhero's for a while. After seeing the price of almost $4 for a comic, I can see why kids dont buy them.
Growing up comics were $1-$2 tops at the time. I cant see kids having the income to buy comics nowadays.
Can you give an example of a game which has mechanics that'll inherently be faster on a tabletop than they would online? I can think of some ideas but I don't want to misinterpret you.
Roleplaying with your group of friends for one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanlis
Or do you mean that mechanics should fly faster on a tabletop game than they do now? I.e., are you just calling for a simpler game?
This is what I mean too. I am calling for a simpler yet more powerful and equally solid game. Each player should not need a dozen of rolls to play his turn that represents 1/50th of an encounter. Nor should we need a board and minis to limit things even more while still bogging them down. Nor the rules referencing and mastery. Things should be more natural to the tabletop player yet equally solid so that he knows how to operate and does not lose himself in the vagueness of a more loose game (like old school for example).
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not arguing that online gaming is superior; I was responding specifically to the assertion that "a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way," because I've had some interesting experiences to the contrary. Said experiences surprised me, too.
I certainly prefer face to face play. At the same time, I'm glad there's a functional method to play D&D online, because I just moved eight hours away from my old gaming group and this'll help me keep in touch.
NADA..absolutely nothing and really, if having the 3rd or 4th most successfu movie of all time can't get people to read Batman in higher numbers, they are screwed..
Kids aren't buying comic books for two reasons:
1. Availability. Comic books are generally only sold in specialty comic book stores, not normal sales channels kids know about. When Billy Everykid goes to see Iron Man and The Dark Knight and thinks that Batman and Iron Man are really cool, he goes off to Wal-Mart and Toys R Us, or Target, or Meijer, or other big stores and buys DVD's and action figures and other toys. When he's going through all this, comic books aren't there. To get comic books you have to drive to a comic-book specialty store, one that isn't part of a big chain and doesn't get instant name recognition and probably isn't advertising very much if at all. You'll find some graphic novels at the big bookstores, but it blends in with the crowd there of of the other superhero media like novels, video game guidebooks and other movie tie-ins.
When I was a little boy, in the early 1980's, I remember seeing some comic books in the magazine racks of convenience stores (that's where I bought my G.I. Joe comics as a kid), but that didn't last for long and a few years later I had no real clue where to go to get comic books.
2. Pricing. Comic books have gone way, way up in price. Comic books used to be petty, pocket-change things because they were on pulp paper with four-color graphics and meant to be enjoyed by kids. Now they tend to be "graphic novels" on glossy paper with fancy graphics, and prices that eat up a lot more of a kids allowance proportionally. Emphasis on intricate continuity and long story arcs now also makes it a lot harder to just jump in and read one comic book and get a complete story. The things that made comic books more mature and appealing to the more mature audience has ensured that they will be read mainly by the dedicated adult comic book collector.
As for how this relates to RPGs, it's pretty much the same. Kids nowadays aren't going to just pick up D&D at Wal-Mart or Toys R Us. When I was a pre-teen in the early 90's I picked up my very first D&D set at Toys R Us, the 1991 "Black Box" Basic D&D set, but I was just in my local Toys R Us yesterday shopping for my 4-year-old's birthday and was curious, and there is no version of D&D for sale there that I could find. Ditto for Wal-Mart, Target, Meijer and all the similar big chain stores, and ditto for being available at big bookstores but that's only one relatively small avenue of distribution.
Also, what is the entry cost for D&D now? Aside from simplified beginner sets that really aren't meant to be long-term play solutions, starting to play D&D involves buying (at least) a PHB, MM, and DMG, as well as dice, and probably miniatures (which if you're using official D&D minis turns into the whole collectable issue and prices involved), so you're probably looking at $120 or so (at least, before suppliments), which for a kid isn't exactly cheap. I will admit that the last intro D&D set I looked at was the 3e intro set released in late 2000/early 2001 which was definitely not a long-term game as it had 1st level pre-gens of a few of the 3e iconics with no customization or advancement rules and was very simplified. A product which includes D&D rules for creating characters of at least a few races and classes from 1st through some low level such as 5th and a balanced but small list of monsters and magic items would be a good solid intro that would lead into later products but not be so crippled as to only be somewhat playable by itself.
A product which includes D&D rules for creating characters of at least a few races and classes from 1st through some low level such as 5th and a balanced but small list of monsters and magic items would be a good solid intro that would lead into later products but not be so crippled as to only be somewhat playable by itself.
You SO make me want to derail this thread by talking about my sig.
__________________ ------------------- HackMaster Basic: Who's watching YOUR back?
-------------------
Mark Plemmons
Editor, Writer, Art Director
Kenzer and Company www.kenzerco.com
-------------------
When I was a kid, I bought most of my comic books from a corner store or magazine/smoke shops at the nearby malls. These days, corner stores and magazine/smoke shops don't carry any comic books at all. The "big box" bookstores nearby sometimes will have a small section with comic books, but they're not always obvious. Typically they're in the corner that nobody would think to look in.
On the topic of starter D&D sets, the 4E "starter set" is largely crap. The only places I ever saw it were places like big box bookstores and FLGS. Otherwise they're nowhere to be found. In contrast to when I was a kid, the basic D&D red box set could be found at many department stores and many toy stores. (This is the box set with Keep on the Borderlands). Toys R Us and some local bookstores carried the 1E AD&D books and modules, in those days.
Kids today (ugh...what a horrible way to start a sentence) in the U.S. have a lot less free time than we did when I was a kid (and I had less than my parents). This is particularly true in terms of large chunks of free time.
Kids are overscheduled, by and large. That leads to "entertainment in snippets" rather than in large blocks.
A corollary, and a sad story:
When my son was born, I wasn't really able to play for about a year. I ended up reading D&D RULEBOOKS (adventures or monsters usually) because I could read them for 5 minutes at a time. I just didn't have the chunks of time to read a novel.
So, yeah, I'll agree that no matter the game or system, it's going to be hard to get kids with little time to play. Of course, a system designed to be "uber simple to pick up and play" had better also have a lot of variety and depth (like Mancala, or even checkers....the rules are simple, but the gameplay can be complex).
No level of "addressing the problem" will suffice if new problems (such as a shallow play experience, a lack of meaningful "mastery", no "reward" for long term play, or barriers to some friends--such as cost, equipment, computer compatibility, etc) arise.
Please note, I am not accusing any current system/game of having those above problems. I'm just pointing out the potential pitfalls of a "quick and easy" game.
I have met more returning players in the past 12 months than I had in the prior 5 years. Most of these are old AD&D types looking to get their 12 year old kids into the game. Ancedotal yes, but I really can't understand the doom and gloom comments when I see nothing but fields of poppies.
Kids today (ugh...what a horrible way to start a sentence) in the U.S. have a lot less free time than we did when I was a kid (and I had less than my parents). This is particularly true in terms of large chunks of free time.
This may be dependent on the background of the persons in question.
My parents grew up in a communist country where the kids were subjected to a rigid schedule and tons of homework. They had very little to no free time for much of anything outside of school and political indoctrination.
In contrast, my other relatives who grew up in America had tons of free time when they were kids. School was largely a side issue for them, and homework wasn't punishing in those days.
It was either that or Fiendish Codex III: Stuff about 8 people care about. 3e was dead. Once you're into the second iteration of Complete [class] books you know the end isn't far off.
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
It was either that or Fiendish Codex III: Stuff about 8 people care about. 3e was dead. Once you're into the second iteration of Complete [class] books you know the end isn't far off.
One could argue that:
- "Complete Champion" was essentially a "Complete Divine 2"
- "Complete Mage" was essentially a "Complete Arcane 2"
- "Complete Psionic" was essentially an "Expanded Psionics Handbook 2"
At times I wonder whether "Martial Power 2" and other second iterations of 4E "Power" books, is fitting into a similar pattern ... Albeit this time around, at a greatly accelerated pace.
If every 4E power source ends up with at least two "Power" books each, it will be a sum total of at least fourteen "Power" books by the time 4E fades into the sunset. This may possibly even break 3.5E's record of splatbook proliferation. (From a rough count, there were around fifty 3.5E hardcover books released by WotC, excluding the Forgotten Realms and Eberron splatbooks).
Last edited by ggroy; 22nd June 2009 at 07:32 AM..
It was either that or Fiendish Codex III: Stuff about 8 people care about. 3e was dead. Once you're into the second iteration of Complete [class] books you know the end isn't far off.
Unless they changed their business model WITHIN 3e.
The could have gone to "setting books" (create a fey realm and populate it and release the complete book of fey...player options, monsters, etc).
They could have focused on a "the way you play" series focused in different avenues of play (beer and pretzles, intrigue/mystery, politics, hack n slash, etc).
They could have released "the refined gamer's guide" which went through all the broken/power creep stuff they did and systematized/carefully errataed what was out there.
They could have released the SORD.
They could have "upped the ante" for books they already have with full size player maps on their site that could be printed and taped together for a full size battlemat.
They could have released a DMG II that was actually useful for the current game rather than expanding the rules for the game (I actually liked the DMGII). Give DMs chunks of rules for ready made npcs, plots, regions, etc. Distill it down and provide it in manageable chunks. (e.g. divide spellcasters into "types" like blaster, buffer, etc and provide spell lists for them at each level.)
What 3e did wrong (and 4e is currently also doing wrong) is that it (they) focus(ed) on broadening the game rather than modularizing and tighteing it up.
I own two large bookcases full of OGL/d20 books. When I select what I want to do for a campaign, I get an idea of what it is and then select the books I want out of my library. I may remember a feat or somesuch and use other books (no rules against it), but, by and large, I select a focus and play to that with a limited number of books. Another campaign, and I'll use an almost entirely different set of books.
WotC's model was (and is) to broaden: MORE races, MORE classes, MORE feats, MORE prestige classes. All that did (besides selling books that eventually dwindled in numbers) was to create greater imbalance/power creep and dilute the game.
I think the "everything is core" decision is a HUGE mistake. The same mistake.
Players don't really need MORE options. Heck, I've seen the thread of "I'll never live long enough to do everything in 4e". That is 1 year into its lifespan. More breadth will not help that person. What players need is for the options they currently have to become more exciting (read: not more powerful, more fun). So, how do you 1. sell books and 2. make things more fun without providing more options?
Power cards are a great example. Character builder is a great example. SORD is too. Make the game easier to play. Give maps, sell tokens, markers, and other ways of keeping track.
Very simply: find the problems and make the problems go away. IMO (a huge fan of 3e) the biggest problem with 3e was the imbalance of a huge number of options, many of which were "broken". Instead of addressing this chief problem, as I've mentioned above, they pumped more books (like complete champion, phbII, etc) into the market and exacerbated the problem, making the game less playable.
There was plenty of room to make 3e better (see Paizo's Pathfinder for an attempt...opinions will vary as to how well it's being done) without making 4e.
All that said, I'm not saying it was bad that they made 4e. But I am saying it wasn't their only option.
Last edited by Aberzanzorax; 22nd June 2009 at 06:06 AM..
There was plenty of room to make 3e better (see Paizo's Pathfinder for an attempt...opinions will vary as to how well it's being done) without making 4e.
If Pathfinder manages to find a way to significantly "clean up" the mess left behind by WotC's neglect of 3.5E in its "final years", I just may actually go back to playing 3.5/Pathfinder.
ggroy,
well, lack of advertizingis partof what killed the Amiga, because, it's said, the execs didn't see the need to advertize it!! Yeesh.
What TSR should do, is something I saw from playing "Battlefield2142"...
put D&D into computer games by non-standard advertizing!
Pay to put D&D stuff in Grand Theft Auto, so when you break into a building there's some guys playing D&D, or you steal gems cut into d20s, or there's a posters on the wall from D&D (the classic Jeff Easely necromancer pic, perhaps) or some such.
Seriously, that is how you get interest now.
This may possibly even break 3.5E's record of splatbook proliferation. (From a rough count, there was around fifty 3.5E hardcover books released by WotC. This is excluding all the Forgotten Realms and Eberron books).
Answering my own post, 26 hardcover 4E books have already been released or announced (up to Martial Power 2, slated for Feb 2010). If one excludes the Forgotten Realms and Eberron books, the total goes down to 22 hardcover 4E books released or announced so far.
The 3.5E era took over four years for WotC to release an accumulated 50 hardcover splatbooks (including the core books, and excluding any FR and Eberron books). In approximately two years since June 2008, around 25 hardcover splatbooks books will have already been released for 4E D&D.
They're already half way there to breaking the 3.5E record!
2e did create grognards because it was seen as oversimplifying, and took away options from the core instead of adding them (kind of like the 3.5/4e split).
Perhaps, but I also see 2e as having created grognards partially as the fallout from Gary's departure from TSR, and partially a reaction to bad modules and some of the design decisions in 2e. Also, 2e wasn't a big enough change that some groups saw it necessary.
__________________ "Y'know, I think my favorite thing about being a hero of destiny is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in your way." -- 8-bit Theater
"i did not serve with napolean in his artillery. but i did play wargames with him and his men." -- diaglo
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
