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Sure enough, on the page the player quoted from memory, there was a random parargraph with its own heading buried amongst other non-related topics about animals with tough hides (the paragraph uses the boar as its example) not having to make saves against poison bite attacks. Why wasn't this in the MM entry for the boar?
Probably because the Monster Manual was the first book released for AD&D (even retaining some D&Disms, such as no AC above 9 IIRC).
So I'd assume that when Gary was thinking about boars at the time of writing the MM, he wasn't thinking about poisons. But when he began thinking about poisons at the time of writing the DMG, he thought of boars.
Not a very satisfying answer, but just maybe a correct one.
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Last edited by rounser; 25th June 2009 at 03:42 PM..
I almost got to use 1e in my last 3e campaign. The setting we play in has been used throughout most of the editions of D&D. I was going to have them travel back in time and then give them 1e versions of their characters since those were the rules of the setting at that time period. It was going to work poerfectly since all the PCs were of race class combinations allowed in 1e. I was going to buy everyone a copy of the 1e PHB for reference.
That is a splendid idea. Of course you realize, I'm going to steal it.
This entire Thread has made my week. It brought back spontaneous memories of good times and good friends.
Heh, I don't think that anyone here is claiming that AD&D 1e is a well-organized game...
It's a general rule that applies to many creature... still it would be helpful to have a remainder in the MM. However, it's also quite possible that when the MM was being written Gary hadn't even thought yet about such an idea.
BTW, for the curious, the rule is on page 81 of the DMG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMG
Poison Saving Throws For Monsters:
There are exceptions to the death (or damage) rule for poison. Any
creature with a thick layer of fat (where blood vessels and nerves are
virtually non-existent) will be totally immune to poison from creatures
which are not able to penetrate this fat layer when injecting their poison.
All swine, wereboars included, will be in this protected class. Similarly,
very large creatures poisoned by very small ones are not likely to be
affected. Even the poison of the deadly coral snake would not be likely to
harm an apatosaurus. Giants would simply smash giant centipedes with-
out fear of their poison - which would cause a swelling and rash,
perhaps, at worst. Whenever a situation arises where poison IS involved,
consider both of these cases in reaching a decision.
__________________ 'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'
It's a general rule that applies to many creature.
And 13-year-old me could have really used Animal Planet back then to make the decision as to which creatures had a sufficient fat layer to protect them from venemous attacks.
Edit: Also, Nikosandros, would you mind posting what the headings of the sections above and below the Poison Saving Throws For Monsters section were? What stuck in my head all these years is how random the placing of that section seemed all those years ago.
I'm not trying to bash 1E here, BTW. These types of things added to the quirkiness of the game in a good way, IMO.
If it hasn't been said already, you know what's really great about AD&D:
The Dungeon Master's Guide. A classic. I used that DMG all the way up to 3.5e because of the cool stuff that is in it:
1. a random dungeon generator
2. the properties of gemstones and herbs,
3. cartoons ("+2 backscratcher")
4. Gygaxian Prose
5. advice how to deal with troublesome players ("Ethereal Mummy!")
6. disease and parasite infection tables
7. the combat tables not found in the PHB!
8. a halfling getting ate by ghouls
9. illustrations of a group making their way through a dungeon and encountering progressively stronger monsters
10. A list of inspirational reading
11. random city encounters that include a Nycadaemon(!) and a harlot. What kind of of harlot? Roll it up on the harlot table!
That, and the book just "feels" like an old tome with secret knowledge only the DM is supposed to know--especially the one with the cover of the robed man opening the door.
The DMG is dated now when compared to other RPG books, but its still a classic and my favorite.
Edit: The DMG has been mention, but it cannot get enough praise! It's the "Chuck Norris" of RPGs.
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
Last edited by Ulrick; 25th June 2009 at 05:13 PM..
That is a splendid idea. Of course you realize, I'm going to steal it.
For that, I thank you all.
Make sure your players on board. If a DM had my friends and I create 3e characters and then presented us with 1e versions of the characters, that DM would find himself (or herself) alone at the table.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
And 13-year-old me could have really used Animal Planet back then to make the decision as to which creatures had a sufficient fat layer to protect them from venemous attacks.
13-year-old me was blissfully unaware of this rule (and many others)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyan Basterd
Edit: Also, Nikosandros, would you mind posting what the headings of the sections above and below the Poison Saving Throws For Monsters section were? What stuck in my head all these years is how random the placing of that section seemed all those years ago.
This one actually makes sense. It's under Combat (Saving throws). The preceding paragraph is titled Poison Saving Throws For Characters:, while the next one is the beginning of a new section and talks about magical armor and saves.
__________________ 'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'
Not just that, but all the OSRIC stuff is for First Edition. Check out Expeditious Retreat Press for the Advanced Adventure line. About 8 or 9 modules right there. Kenzer has done a couple, too.
And if you expand out into the other retro-clones for OD&D and Basic, there's a lot more that works with virtually no conversions. Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and BFRPG modules are all highly usable.
Knockspell Magazine contains OSRIC material on a roughly quarterly basis along with Swords & Wizardry (0e) and other clones, and Dragonsfoot has a free e-zine called Footprints with tons of new resources for 1e.
There's a heck of a lot of new material out there.
(I forgot Guy Fullerton's Fane of Poisoned Prophesy, for example).
(and I forgot Fight On! magazine, which is a bit more 0e, but still usable with 1e).
Not just that, but all the OSRIC stuff is for First Edition. Check out Expeditious Retreat Press for the Advanced Adventure line. About 8 or 9 modules right there. Kenzer has done a couple, too.
And if you expand out into the other retro-clones for OD&D and Basic, there's a lot more that works with virtually no conversions. Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and BFRPG modules are all highly usable.
Knockspell Magazine contains OSRIC material on a roughly quarterly basis along with Swords & Wizardry (0e) and other clones, and Dragonsfoot has a free e-zine called Footprints with tons of new resources for 1e.
There's a heck of a lot of new material out there.
(I forgot Guy Fullerton's Fane of Poisoned Prophesy, for example).
(and I forgot Fight On! magazine, which is a bit more 0e, but still usable with 1e).
I'll add my voice to the chorus praising the 1e AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide as one of the greatest FRPG books of all time.
As Mythmere mentioned, there are many new things available for AD&D (and AD&D-compatible games, like OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, etc.).
It's not a bad time to be into 'old school' games!
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I think the 1e DMG is a rules reference, but it's also an "information dump" from Gary on how to think like and be a DM. That means sometimes the DMG is laying out rules, but other times, it's Gary providing advice, example, and guidelines on how to rule on certain situations. Sometimes the lines between those areas aren't clearly demarcated, and Gary's authoritative tone can cloud it even further.
In the case of the poison saving throws and monsters, I see the DMG as saying: the rule is that poison attacks require a saving throw vs. poison. And then Gary saying "...however, keep in mind that the specifics of the situation might create an exception." He's saying that the DM should consider the source of the poison and the target of the poison and make a judgment. The main purpose isn't to provide a rule on whether specific creatures are immune to poison attacks; it's about providing advice to the DM on how to rule on the situation.
Even more formal rules are often presented in this light (i.e. this is the general rule and these are ways to handle exceptions and corner cases).
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
Yes. The DMG isn't just a rules book. It is also a discourse, or rather, a conversation from one DM to another. It's a coaching guide. It's a toolbox full of fascinating references, and hooks to build a healthy DM culture, and leaves you wanting more, pushing to research well outside the sphere of RPGs for inspirations, explanations, definitions, referential materials and more.
It's hard to understate the fantastically versatile nature of the DMG's contents. It's one of Gary's masterpieces, and a masterpiece of role-playing games in general.
Those are fine points, but I also know that if I hadn't the Mentzer "red box" to fall back upon, I would have had a lot of problems in running AD&D back when I started...
__________________ 'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'
Those are fine points, but I also know that if I hadn't the Mentzer "red box" to fall back upon, I would have had a lot of problems in running AD&D back when I started...
Ditto with me. With the Rules Cyclopedia, I don't think I could've DMed 2nd edition...
I have a fondness for 1st ed., as well as B/X. Alas, it is hard to get any of my friends to try it out, at least at this time. The closest I can get is, maybe, Castles and Crusades. I have a friend in another city that ran it. Maybe he will agree to a one-shot.
I did just buy the RC and a bestiary for it. At least I can read them.
And I totally did not know about swine and poison saves. And I thought I knew that book!
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