General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Just gotta add my two bits, that I'm really digging this thread. I skipped over 2e and 3e. Although recently (past 2 yrs) we've given 3.5 a try. I wonder if after this campaign they'd wanna jump back to my ADnD game...
Over the years the old adventures that have been requested to be "run again" have been S3, G1-3 and T1-4. I tweek them every time to keep it somewhat "new". We always have a blast!
Just gotta add my two bits, that I'm really digging this thread. I skipped over 2e and 3e. Although recently (past 2 yrs) we've given 3.5 a try. I wonder if after this campaign they'd wanna jump back to my ADnD game...
Over the years the old adventures that have been requested to be "run again" have been S3, G1-3 and T1-4. I tweek them every time to keep it somewhat "new". We always have a blast!
Game On!
Oh yeah, you've gotta throw a few curves in there - don't want the players of old modules getting complacent. The last run through of the "G" series had Nosnra using the javelins of lightning like pub darts on the players!
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Oh yeah, you've gotta throw a few curves in there - don't want the players of old modules getting complacent. The last run through of the "G" series had Nosnra using the javelins of lightning like pub darts on the players!
LOL!---that's a great one, Bill!
__________________ grodog
----
Allan Grohe
Editor and Project Manager Black Blade Publishing
I've got a couple of friends that I've introduced to gaming in the recent past, and they've been asking me when we are going to play again.
I've been seriously considering 1E, but I'm not sure how to sell them on the idea.
Anyone have any experience with this situation? Do I need a lengthy explanation on why 1E is fun, or should I just let the game speak for itself?
Their gaming experience includes Marvel FASERIP and Castles & Crusades, but they haven't been playing for long.
If/when this game gets off of the ground, they'll start at 1st level, probably with The Keep on the Borderlands, and when they reach 8th-9th level, I plan on running them through the Giants series.
And to add my voice with others, AD&D is indeed awesome.
__________________ R.I.P. Gary Gygax, 1938 - 2008.
Anyone have any experience with this situation? Do I need a lengthy explanation on why 1E is fun, or should I just let the game speak for itself?
In my experience of "converting" people to AD&D, definitely the latter. I avoid any lengthy speech and just tell them, I think this game is pretty cool... why don't we try it?
__________________ 'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'
I've got a couple of friends that I've introduced to gaming in the recent past, and they've been asking me when we are going to play again.
I've been seriously considering 1E, but I'm not sure how to sell them on the idea.
Anyone have any experience with this situation? Do I need a lengthy explanation on why 1E is fun, or should I just let the game speak for itself?
Their gaming experience includes Marvel FASERIP and Castles & Crusades, but they haven't been playing for long.
If/when this game gets off of the ground, they'll start at 1st level, probably with The Keep on the Borderlands, and when they reach 8th-9th level, I plan on running them through the Giants series.
And to add my voice with others, AD&D is indeed awesome.
If your players love the adventures more than character building, and tweaking then they should enjoy AD&D. If they had fun with the C&C games then AD&D will not be a huge leap for them.
In my experience of "converting" people to AD&D, definitely the latter. I avoid any lengthy speech and just tell them, I think this game is pretty cool... why don't we try it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExploderWizard
If your players love the adventures more than character building, and tweaking then they should enjoy AD&D. If they had fun with the C&C games then AD&D will not be a huge leap for them.
Thanks to you both.
__________________ R.I.P. Gary Gygax, 1938 - 2008.
AD&D is organic. It grew and evolved over time. Play experience varied from DM to DM who each could tailor the game to his or her tastes. The rules were more like guidelines and Gygax's way of saying "Here's a bunch of cool stuff I used, you don't have to use them, but here they are to use as you see fit!"
AD&D is about playing the game with skill instead of character building and showing off cool powers. In AD&D, cool powers mattered little in the Tomb of Horrors, cool powers would not decipher the code found in the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, cool powers would make you seem like a bigger threat to Strahd in the Ravenloft module--who would throw more minions at you. AD&D emphasized player skill, rather than character powers.
And these are just a couple more reasons why AD&D is awesome.
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
AD&D is organic. It grew and evolved over time. Play experience varied from DM to DM who each could tailor the game to his or her tastes. The rules were more like guidelines and Gygax's way of saying "Here's a bunch of cool stuff I used, you don't have to use them, but here they are to use as you see fit!"
AD&D is about playing the game with skill instead of character building and showing off cool powers. In AD&D, cool powers mattered little in the Tomb of Horrors, cool powers would not decipher the code found in the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, cool powers would make you seem like a bigger threat to Strahd in the Ravenloft module--who would throw more minions at you. AD&D emphasized player skill, rather than character powers.
And these are just a couple more reasons why AD&D is awesome.
I'd say something pithy like "You win the thread" or the like but we're not having any kind of debate or flamewar...so I will rather say that's the most right thing I've seen in a long time when it comes to AD&D.
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
I'd say something pithy like "You win the thread" or the like but we're not having any kind of debate or flamewar...so I will rather say that's the most right thing I've seen in a long time when it comes to AD&D.
I take that as great complement! Thank you!
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Another thought just crossed my mind: I think AD&D (and D&D before it) were the first codified cross-genre RPGs; that is to say, they at least offered the option to switch things up with the sections in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE (namely SIXGUNS & SORCERY and MUTANTS AND MAGIC).
If I'm wrong on that front of course someone feel free to correct me.
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
As I've said before, the glory of 1e was its adventures. Little wonder that the most successful third party adventure writers have been those who have tried to channel or recapture the 1e era in this way.
I think the G/D/Q sequence informs my DMing philosophy to this day.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
He's got some great forums going on over at his place, so check those out. Drop by the Citadel, too, we have discussion on other vintage games from the 80s you may have thought were forgotten!
'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.'
- Thomas Paine, on integrity
As I've said before, the glory of 1e was its adventures. Little wonder that the most successful third party adventure writers have been those who have tried to channel or recapture the 1e era in this way.
I think the G/D/Q sequence informs my DMing philosophy to this day.
As indeed it should. The GIANTS series and the DROW series are very, very different modules in tone - despite their linear connection - but they are both the blueprint for the massive dungeon crawl and the massive environment trek (despite the latter being underground), and D3 VAULT OF THE DROW stands alone as the exemplar of the sandbox (ugh...forge terminology) adventure.
Q1 QUEEN OF THE DEMONWEB PITS stands alone - I am not denigrating Mr. Sutherland's work, it is a fine module - as a perfect example of no-holds-barred gonzo dungeon adventures. It is incongruous with the majority of the G and D series, but then one could make the argument that the rather piscine nature of D2 SHRINE OF THE KUA-TOA is, as well (the module feels like it'd better fit beneath some Polynesian-esque island in the Azure Sea or the like).
I think to say that the totality of the awesomeness of ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS lies solely with the modules isn't entirely true - what is laid out in those modules, and S1 through S4 and the WG series begins in the MONSTER MANUAL, the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE and the PLAYERS HANDBOOK (but more strongly in the two latter).
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
He's got some great forums going on over at his place, so check those out. Drop by the Citadel, too, we have discussion on other vintage games from the 80s you may have thought were forgotten!
Thanks for the bump, and yes, visit the Citadel, too!
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Wow, the Delver drags me out of my lurking after months and months of silence...
Been playing C&C for years, and HackMaster before that, and of late been considering going back to 1E. Recently had our annual get-together and had to take the 1E MM along for the devils... And wanting to play it.
Love the 1E, it feels comfy like an old shoe. Thinking of returning to it.
Don.
__________________
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Wow, the Delver drags me out of my lurking after months and months of silence...
Been playing C&C for years, and HackMaster before that, and of late been considering going back to 1E. Recently had our annual get-together and had to take the 1E MM along for the devils... And wanting to play it.
Love the 1E, it feels comfy like an old shoe. Thinking of returning to it.
Don.
"Everytime I think I'm out, they pull me back in!"
You've got a good group, TheGM - there's no reason not to make the transition back.
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
1e is freakin' great. I remember trying to play a 2e game after 3e launched, and not being able to stomach the proficiency system. In comparison, 1e and older D&D don't have any of that baggage; they're fun, pure and simple. I dare someone not to read or play "In Search of the Unknown" or some of the S series and not be totally entranced.
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Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
Three more things that make AD&D awesome...
(These can apply to both AD&D and AD&D 2e).
1. Proficiencies were there but not required.
I was satisfied the proficiency system in both AD&D 1st and 2nd editions. It was, however, quick and dirty. I didn't make much sense why characters did not get better as they progressed, but that's what you get with a system that was tacked-on.
The neat thing about the proficiency system is both editions is that you did not have to use it. It was available. But it was not an integral part of the system. The DM could use it or not.
When my brother introduced me to AD&D back in the late 1980s, we did not use the proficiency system. There was a lot for me to learn as a 10 year old. In fact, we never did use the proficiency system and still had a lot of fun.
When I started running games for AD&D 2e, I held off on the proficiency system until my players were comfortable with the basics of AD&D--combat, roleplaying, character skills (thief, spellcasting, etc). And we had fun. In fact, IIRC, using proficiencies helped "round out" a character but didn't detract anything from the fun.
2. Layering of systems and subsystems
Unlike in later editions, you can learn AD&D in bits and pieces and still have a good time. The Players Handbook had the basics on combat, roleplaying, and general advice. More advanced information resided in the DMG, such as the combat tables. (although I admit it would suck only having the PHB and MM in the days before the DMG came out).
The proficiency system is great example of this, along with the weapon bonuses versus different types of armor. They could be learned and used... or not.
As the rule supplements came out (like Unearthed Arcana, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, etc), they could be integrated into the game or not.
The fact is, you didn't have to study the books in order to have a fun game or create an optimal character. It helped to study so you could get the rules down, but it wasn't required as a player. The burden of mastering the system relied on the DM (who should know the rules anyway).
In fact, AD&D almost geared itself for newbies to play. Each character class at first level had a small amount of skills to keep track of (yeah, the wizard only got one spell...). This made the game fairly simple to learn. The players didn't have to spend time mulling over their character sheets during play deciding what powers to use. Their attention was on the DM and what was going on in the game.
I cut my teeth playing a dwarven fighter. I've seen dozens of newbie players over the course of 1st and 2nd edition start by playing a fighter. It is the perfect class to begin AD&D. It has high hp, has a reasonable chance of getting decent armor, and it easily enables a player to learn the combat system.
Many of those players, of course, often moved on to a more specialized class. But they learned the combat system before moving on.
3. Lack of Ripple-Effect from altering the rules...
I came up with the "Ripple-Effect" term when 3e came out and I tried running it with a low-magic campaign world. Basically, if I altered one part of the system, it would cause "ripples" throughout the system. For example, cutting down on magic items would alter the CR of various monsters and NPCs. It would be difficult, for another example, to alter the skill system without effecting the rogue and the bard. Tinkering with feats might hose the fighter.
Rules altered in AD&D usually don't "ripple" out and effect other systems. For example, altering the proficiency system will not effect thieves skills. Another example, letting the poor 1st level wizard get bonus spells for high intelligence (like a cleric with high system) will not make him overshadow other classes (he still needs to conserve his spells and stay out of combat).
Or removing demi-human level limits won't effect the rules (thought it might affect player choices for races).
This lack of "ripple effect" enabled a DM to tailor AD&D to suit his desires and tastes without much difficultly.
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
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