General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
In a sentence, I think the OP is saying that OD&D's adventuring style was about trying to live with freedom while 4e's style is about wanting to follow a predetermined path.
If someone with a modern education went far into the past they could contend with any sorcerer on the basis of knowledge and theory. Social mobility used to be a big part of Americas' self image compared to what used to be called the old world. It appears to me that this trend has come full cycle. Now people dream of being married into royalty, getting lucrative jobs serving the oil rich, and being "discovered" by some existing authority.
A character made in 4e is best served by viewing how they can contribute to the group they belong too. That sense of belonging seems to be the guiding star unto itself. One can be part of a great team and do amazing things. Never mind that that team will only go on adventures that are provided for it. Defining it's own adventure or quest seems to be extinct.
Look at player expectations. If the tomb of an ancient sorcerer is opened they fully expect it to be more powerful than any one of them alone. Ancient knowledge is easily accepted as more valid and more powerful than our own. If that sorcerer befriends the party, rewards them for helping, and sets about subjugating the medieval population for a new monolith project the party has no problem with it. Particularly if the promise is that upon completion the sorcerer will be able to share the most powerful spell of their lost civilization with the party.
And if that spell came at the cost of thousands of lives in forced labor, the monolith dominated the country side, and turned out to be a minor first level spell? What then. But 4e DM's would never do that. They would introduce some super spell off the level charts at a new level of power. The idea that some geeky repressed person trapped under the status quo is the source of the most powerful spell is gone. Players will assume the person is secretly receiving instructions or that they dug it up somewhere.
In fact what is the best promotion that a 4e party can offer any NPC. That's right. Membership in the group. Nothing more. No longer are the phrases like "king maker", "discoverer of", and "inventor" heard. But I bet you they can talk for days on end about how things are fine they way they are, and one should learn to appreciate what they have, and even that these thoughts are dangerous and I should be stopped.
Tigh
I have to be honest, I find your conclusions about 4e to be nonsensical, but even such useless rhetoric against a game system is at least forgivable. However I find your implications about younger generations, and well, anyone that happens to like a game that you clearly don't to be utterly repugnant.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
The nice thing about RPGs in general and I've found with every edition of D&D so far is I can still play it the way I want to play it. And much to my dismay, though I'm told it is a good thing, other people can play in their own way different from mine.
You should translate it into Japanese and then back into English and then repost it.
How about this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babelfish
OD& As for D when = social mobility, 4e
today someone of education enters past directly, as for them it is possible to dispute with all magic teachers on the basis of knowledge and theory. As for social mobility Americas' It was normal to be the large part; As for image of oneself although it is called the old world, it compared with those which are used. When there is a complete period which comes to this tendency, you can think in me. This time dream of the people of marriage, the rich person of oil functioning is done in the royalty, and " The work which is and makes a profit is obtained; discovered" With existing authority. To be best functioning it is done by the quality which you can do with 4e with them, or belongs and is possible to contributing to the group how sees. The one bodily sensation seems like the star of guidance to that itself. To do the part and splendid thing of the splendid team it is possible one. Going with just the venture where the team is offered to that never that as the air you do not have to designate. it' Definition; As for s venture is owned or as for search seems that becomes extinct. Look at the expectation of the player. If the grave of the ancient magic teacher opens, as for them when it is more powerful with whichever of those, expects sufficiently that independently.
Ancient knowledge is accepted us more powerful effective way than monopolized ones and easily. If that magic teacher helps the party, there is no that problem of the party in set concerning domesticating the medieval population for project of the monolith organization which gives remuneration to those for assisting, is new. Especially, promise then as for the magic teacher the party can share the most powerful spelling of the civilization which is gone in completion.
When and the spelling comes being cost of life of many forced labor, as for monolith organization the side of the country, the minor first you reversing the fact that it is spelling of level, only control. Then what.
But 4e DM' s never does not do that. Those bring extreme spelling at the level whose power is new from the horizontal diagram separated. Geeky which is caught under present condition the person who is oppressed goes as for the thought of being the origin most powerful spelling. The player the person receives the indication in secret, or supposes that you dig somewhere that.
The 4e party being able to offer NPC something where is the best promotion really. That' The right of s. Member of group. What is many. " Already there is no phrase the way; Maker" of king; " Of" of discoverer; And " inventor" It is heard. But I them am between thing of many day of edge and as for me whom these thoughts of them have well dangerously, it is depended especially, the method the fact that those one should stop, are recognized should be learned, how concerning betting the thing which it is possible to speak.
You should translate it into Japanese and then back into English and then repost it.
Don't do that! You wind up with thing like the "chargen" program included in the 3.0 PHB turning into the nicknames for a crazy man.
Seriously, the Original Post:
1) Accidentally teh funny.
2) More pompous than Jack7.
3) What kind of stupid ass D&D game has characters meeting crappy old sorcerers to get a light spell?
4) Dwarves. Tuna Cans. Old-School Butt.
Once again the guy tigh produces some big question marks from me, a compalation of his post would be amusement for all....
..although maybe my intellectual capacity is unable to make the leap from ODnD=good old classless USA and 4E=ye olde worlde. Although both seem to have sons that take over the rule of the country!
the party can share the most powerful spelling of the civilization which is gone in completion.
Now I understand! In OD&D, you could research your own spelling. In 4E, you never end up with a power like Drawmij's Reaping Stryke -- the system just doesn't allow that kind of freedom, damn it all!
It must be quite hard to see that thereīs an edition out there where the Player Characters arentīt the only ones who ainīt lvl zero commoners.
So not beeing the only small handfull of people with superior stats and the build-in right to rule is more freedom and social mobility than having to actually accomplish something?
__________________ What do you mean? Iīve been camping with the girls and I didnīt touch īem? That makes me evil?
I double-dog-dare the OP to make his or her game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions.
This is just so truthy, it becomes my new sig. EVERYONE should do this.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Consumer alert: I am not trying to put words in the original poster's mouth. For one, I don't know where that mouth has been; I might catch something. No, I am trying to make sense of the post, and this is my attempt.
It is explicitly stated in the rules for 4th edition DUNGEONS & DRAGONS and "suggested" (at the very least) in 3rd edition D&D that after n sessions, a character should be x level and have y number of magic items of z magnitude.
I think what our confused (confusing?) poster is suggesting is that:
Because of this "Time you've played must equate to a certain number of levels, period" paradigm, that a 4e campaign that centered on the unearthing of the monolith in the original poster's initial thesis, that the unearthing of, through use of magic, through hunting down a spell, coercing/hiring/kidnapping someone of sufficient power to make the unearthing happen, or likewise acquiring a powerful enough magic item to do so (Mattock of the Titans, etc.) that by the end of that period, the next logical step would be that the reward for doing so would be (a) commensurately powerful magic item(s), and that conversely, in original D&D, since a DM is unfettered from such conventions, that the DM might say that the journey, was, in effect, the destination and that lo and behold, beneath the mighty monolith is a lousy 1st level spell (I mean can you imagine Q1 capping off with finding a scroll of magic missile lying in Lolth's apartments in the Demonweb?!).
Frankly, in this DM's opinion both outcomes suck. The first predicates the notion that the rules MAKE the DM give the players things based on real world time put in, and the second is just "nyah nyah I'm a dick and I can be because I'm the DM".
Note: this is my interpretation of the original post, and nothing more.
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Wow, DD, twice in the same day I agree with you. That's some kinda record.
Really, in my mind, the whole "after X encounters, you should be Y level with Z treasure" isn't all that different in any edition. The only difference is the level of explicitness in the rules. I mean, a 7th level paladin in any edition is going to have some bling. You would hardly expect Mordenkainen to be walking around with a normal staff and no magic items either.
There were wealth assumptions in every edition. It wasn't until 3rd, though, that these assumptions were explicitly told to the DM or the players.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
@TheDungeonDelver: can you pretty please not use that font? I know it is the proper old-styleez ADnD font (or close enough) but it cripples my eyes on a PC monitor- white words on black!
Obviously you can ignore me to your hearts content if that is your wish
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