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I'm needing the class to help my Dark Sun campaign, hehe. I've been using the work a fellow kindly posted here on ENWorld for that up till now *tips hat to him!*
I've always liked psionics, at least in concept, but 1ast ed Psionics was a complete bloody nightmare, eek!!
Some people have long disliked psionics, as they feel it's not "medieval fantasy" or not fantasy at all, seeing it as pseudo-science.
Well they may have a point but I don't see why science has no place in D&D as I see alchemy as a blend of pratical science and a dash of magic, esepcially as it goes on in power.
And I've never seen fantasy as HAVING ot be "Medieval europe", and in actual fact, our mythology is a lot more complex than is thought. So there's certainly plenty of room for odd stuff!
3rd ed psionics was good, and bad. It added more variety and balance, as 2nd ed was complex and buggy (hence why I designed my own 2nd ed rules for psionics based off spells in the PHB!!Silverblade in D&D Print! )
but like 3rd ed itself, 3rd ed psionics was way too complex. it's bad neough working out skill points, butthen Power Points...ugh.
Psions also became more artillery than "controllers", and 3rd ed lacked tactics, the push pull slide teleporting of 4th ed is such a wonderful change, it means psions and others don't just have to be "nukers".
I hope some of the fun and odd stuff of the 2nd ed Psionics Handbook is kept, 3rd ed kept most of it but a few bits were lost out iirc.
Psychometabolism is very valid I feel, as monks now = psionics, and it's power over their own bodies!
So powers that enlarge, heal self and so forth all should be cool.
I am really hoping they keep the terminology and feel of Pseudoscience with the Psion (and other classes to be shown later). It is just such a fun/neat fluff for Psionics that it will be great to have. Especially since my fantasy games always have Pseudoscience (hell... in general I have less fantasy in my fantasy games then anything else (though I think overall Pseudoscience fits better in fantasy then sci-fi)).
As for what I want out of the Psion:
To be the main Telekenesis user. I could see it also taking some Pyro/Thermokenesis too. But yeah lots of fun shoving around, etc. I wouldn't mind to see perhaps some way to really showcase lifting someone off their feet. I want to really feel like I am turning someone into a rag-doll.
"Mind Implements", I dunno how to actually implement it but instead of some actual physical object it is something mental. I could see a choice between Disciplined and Undiciplined. Disciplined being focused and precise and Undiciplined by all Carrie style.
I am hoping for Psionic rituals overall but the Psion getting that as a Class Feature.
I am wondering if they will try to implement Psionic Combat in any form.
I think the Psion will be much more focused then in 3rd Edition. With its focus on Telekenesis mainly. Psychometabolism would be going to Monk. Telepathy and such going to Empath, etc.
One thing that isn't specific to Psion that I would like to see:
Mindblades for everyone. It would be a feat tree so every Psionic PC could use Mindblades (in whatever weapon they are trained in) as Weapon/Implements for their Psionic Powers. Plus later feats give special bonuses and what not.
__________________ Secret Member of... *blink, blink* Damn you amnesia!
Buh? Psions as just nukers? They could do far more then jujst nuke, my friend . Maybe in 3.0 they were crappy, but 3.5 is, in my opinion, the best Psionics have ever been at! Save for the part where, you know, they were completely abandoned and forgotten
4e psionics is going to be...tricky. The vast majority of people who like psionics, loved 3.5's rendition of them, and very, very strongly want a mechanical difference between them and other types of casters - which simply won't happen in 4e. Most of the people that dislike psionics, well, dislike them. I think 4e is going to be in a really rough spot as far as psionics goes, simply because they're 1) coming out of a psionics system that was, in my opinion, the very avatar of elegence and simplicity, and 2) the vast, vast majority of people who like psionics don't want them to be just a reskinned wizard, and want different game mechanics from how wizards do things to fit the idea of them gaining their power in a radically different way.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Personally for me, the mechanics of Psionics in 3.5 isn't what sold it for me. It was the feel of the abilities and the classes. I think said abilities and such can translate fine over to 4e and Power System. There is enough feel of difference between a Primal, Divine and Arcane classes for supernatural powered classes that I think Psionics will showcase as more then just a reskinned Wizard.
__________________ Secret Member of... *blink, blink* Damn you amnesia!
"Mind Implements", I dunno how to actually implement it but instead of some actual physical object it is something mental. I could see a choice between Disciplined and Undiciplined. Disciplined being focused and precise and Undiciplined by all Carrie style.
Oooh, I want Dark Sun-style harbingers: something like a cross between an implement and a ranger's beast companion coupled with a neat visual effect.
So if your harbinger is a hawk, your mental attacks might be more accurate but deal less damage. If your harbinger is a ram, it might be able to push your target an extra square. If your harbinger is a bear, your target might take a penalty to saves against powers that immobilize. And so on.
EDIT: A mind blade could also be a form of harbinger: it requires the target to be adjacent, but would be more accurate or more damaging to compensate.
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Last edited by FireLance; 24th June 2009 at 11:24 AM..
I am really hoping they keep the terminology and feel of Pseudoscience with the Psion (and other classes to be shown later). It is just such a fun/neat fluff for Psionics that it will be great to have.
I agree. I want to see the psionic disciplines remain somehow. My guess is that the psion may choose between 5-6 disciplines, kind of like how the warlock chooses between pacts. Although, the disciplines may be the foundation for a series of paragon paths.
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[*]"Mind Implements", I dunno how to actually implement it but instead of some actual physical object it is something mental. I could see a choice between Disciplined and Undiciplined. Disciplined being focused and precise and Undiciplined by all Carrie style.
I could see psicrystals being used as an implement.
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[*]I am wondering if they will try to implement Psionic Combat in any form.
They better! What I'm guessing, though, is that it will take the form of 4e's powers. Attack vs. Will. Which is funny, because that hearkens back to the revised 2e version with MTHAC0 and MAC.
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[*]I think the Psion will be much more focused then in 3rd Edition. With its focus on Telekenesis mainly. Psychometabolism would be going to Monk. Telepathy and such going to Empath, etc.
Possibly, though I personally hope to see disciplines as I described above.
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One thing that isn't specific to Psion that I would like to see:
Mindblades for everyone. It would be a feat tree so every Psionic PC could use Mindblades (in whatever weapon they are trained in) as Weapon/Implements for their Psionic Powers. Plus later feats give special bonuses and what not.
I'm hoping it's either a power or a feat that gives you a power. Or it could be part of a paragon path. Really, there's no reason a psion shouldn't have mindblades. One of the influences of mindblades was Psylocke from X-Men fame, and back in the day, she used a mindblade as well as other psionic powers.
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCirno
4e psionics is going to be...tricky. The vast majority of people who like psionics, loved 3.5's rendition of them, and very, very strongly want a mechanical difference between them and other types of casters - which simply won't happen in 4e. Most of the people that dislike psionics, well, dislike them. I think 4e is going to be in a really rough spot as far as psionics goes, simply because they're 1) coming out of a psionics system that was, in my opinion, the very avatar of elegence and simplicity, and 2) the vast, vast majority of people who like psionics don't want them to be just a reskinned wizard, and want different game mechanics from how wizards do things to fit the idea of them gaining their power in a radically different way.
Agreed. My fear is that 4e psionics will be the same as every other power. I always liked the power points/psionic strength points. In fact, I chose the psionicist in 2e just for the simple fact that I could use the same power over and over so long as I had points left.
Plus, it's hard to argue against the great work that Bruce R. Cordell did with Malhavoc's various psionics books. I still want to try out various PrCs from those books!
My guess is that 4e psionics will look like other powers, but maybe include some of the pseudoscience. Not exactly the answer I was hoping for, but alas.
I would also say that the wilder will become a build. The soulknife is probably out since we have the monk as striker. No great loss, IMO, so long as we have either a soulknife paragon path or a mindblade power.
I also imagine the psychic warrior will return to represent the power of psychometabolism (which the monk kind of does too).
Although...wouldn't it be freaky if the psionic leader was a telepath and used his telepathic abilities to boost his friends and hinder his enemies? He would be a leader, but it would be through manipulation. Of course, that might work with the controller too.
I recall a podcast where a dev let it slip that the Psionic Leader was called an Empath. It was a toss away comment because he was listing the Leaders, but I wouldn't be surprised.
My only big want, is psionic rituals, and I do mean seperate rituals keyed off a seperate skill.
When I first saw the rituals I was overjoyed and hoped for Psionic rituals, but now I doubt it will happen. Seeing the design system, and frankly the way WOTC has been treating rituals I suspect Psions will just get arcana training and do the exact same rituals as wizards LAME!
That and I want alot of at-will utilities for mind reading and suched outside of combat.
My only big want, is psionic rituals, and I do mean seperate rituals keyed off a seperate skill.
When I first saw the rituals I was overjoyed and hoped for Psionic rituals, but now I doubt it will happen. Seeing the design system, and frankly the way WOTC has been treating rituals I suspect Psions will just get arcana training and do the exact same rituals as wizards LAME!
How so?
Bards have Bard-specific rituals that no else can use. It's not unlikely that Psions will get the same. It would be interesting to see their rituals use another skill... Endurance, for example.
And remember... Anyone -- even a Fighter or a Rogue -- who takes the Ritual Caster feat can use the basic generic rituals. You don't even need to be trained in the skill.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
I expect it to be reasonably balanced (for the first time).
Other than that, it will be useful for those who like the psionics flavor, for others it will just be one more keyword (not even that, psychic is already in the PHB).
Bye
Thanee
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In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!
In Memoriam Dave Arneson ( April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax ( March 4th, 2008).
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The vast majority of people ... Most of the people ... the vast, vast majority of people ...
How do you know what the vast, vast majority of people wants?
I'm reasonably confident, that the vast majority of people who like 4E like the fact that they do not have completely different mechanics for every class, quite specifically.
Bye
Thanee
__________________
In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!
In Memoriam Dave Arneson ( April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax ( March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
I don't think there's any chance that the Psion will operate significantly outside the normal 4e power structure. I could be wrong - but I just don't see it happening, so if that's the only way you'll be happy with it, get ready for disappointmen. I really don't see a power point system working for 4e as such, but on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Psions could give their powers boosts of some sort as a class feature, maybe, to represent spending more power points.
I've been very happy with the way the 4e designers have used a combination of class features and power details to give each class a distinctive feel. I hope this trend continues, because without interesting class features, it'll just be another Wizard or Invoker.
We have already seen the Monk playtest. We can be certain other Psionic classes will use the same framework as all other classes. I would be surprised of anything else.
What we might see is an interesting twist - like with the Monk. The Monks "full disciplines" basically combine an attack power with a (movement related) utility power.
Or like with the Barbarian and his Rages.
Or the Vestige Pact Warlock with his Vestiges.
Or the Wizard with his extra daily and utility spells.
Of course I am not sure that the Psion needs such a "gimmicky" aspect. Sure, someone that doesn't like the power structure in 4E would want a different system. In 3E, Psions were great to remove Vancian Magic that many people disliked, too. But I do not think that this was the reason Psionics were introduced in D&D. I think the reason was that they should provide a different flavor, not just for having a different resource management. And 4E puts its flavor in the details of the implementation, not the general mechanics.
Although...wouldn't it be freaky if the psionic leader was a telepath and used his telepathic abilities to boost his friends and hinder his enemies? He would be a leader, but it would be through manipulation. Of course, that might work with the controller too.
There's no particular reason why the psionic classes need to cover all 4 roles, or why there have to be 4 of them (particularly if the subtitle on the cover wasn't just a placeholder).
The 3.x psuedo-leader-esque psionic classes were Ardent and Divine Mind, but in 4e terminology those two seem like they would be more of a hash between divine classes and psionic classes; maybe they'll end up as paragon paths that requires divine/psionic multiclassing if they don't just get dropped entirely.
I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior, myself; it's been around for every version of psionics since 2e, but they've got all the flavor of a stale cracker. I mean, maybe the flavor is psychometabolism/self-buffing heavy, but I could really see it being dropped. Probably won't be, though.
I had expected the generic psion to be dropped, because it just covered too much ground. It was both a striker and a controller, and I kind of think the realm covered by the energy powers really largely belongs to arcane classes (and maybe elemental classes if/when that shows up).
But the Soulknife was too flavorful to be dropped or relegated to a paragon path, and iffy as a defender, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see five psionic classes.
Or the Wizard with his extra daily and utility spells.
IMO I think a better comparison is the Wizard with his cantrips.
But I agree. I anticipate several things.
1) The Psionic classes will fit into the At-Will/Encounter/Daily framework. All classes fit into that. That's how the entire system is balanced.
2) The Psionic power source classes will have some universal mechanics (like how all Divine classes have Channel Divinity and do radiant damage, all Primal classes get more HP for their role and often function in lighter armor). Although the Monk may be the odd man out here.
3) The classes' class features are going to do stuff we haven't seen before. Like the Monk and his attack/movement powers. Like the Druid and the Wildshape/Beast keyword powers. Or the Avenger's Oath of Emnity. The designers are experimenting with Different Things.
Also, it would not Surprise me if the Soul Knife did not make the cut. Much like the 3e Druid got carved into the Warden, Shaman and Druid, the Soul Knife might get eaten by the Psychic Warrior. The Soul Knife's only distinctive quality is that he could make his own weapon, and that could easily be cannibalized by another class. Or it could turn into a multi-class (ala the Weapon specialization multi-classes from Dragon, or the Spellscarred).
Psions also became more artillery than "controllers", and 3rd ed lacked tactics, the push pull slide teleporting of 4th ed is such a wonderful change, it means psions and others don't just have to be "nukers".
Really? What about time hop, ectoplasmic wall, entangling ectoplam, induce pain. Then psions have the best communication and scrying powers in the game. Personally I'd say making a 3.5 psion artillery is kind of wasted.
4e psionics is going to be...tricky. The vast majority of people who like psionics, loved 3.5's rendition of them, and very, very strongly want a mechanical difference between them and other types of casters - which simply won't happen in 4e. Most of the people that dislike psionics, well, dislike them. I think 4e is going to be in a really rough spot as far as psionics goes, simply because they're 1) coming out of a psionics system that was, in my opinion, the very avatar of elegence and simplicity, and 2) the vast, vast majority of people who like psionics don't want them to be just a reskinned wizard, and want different game mechanics from how wizards do things to fit the idea of them gaining their power in a radically different way.
I agree entirely. However, with the PHB2 classes they pushed the envelope with some newer twists, and the monk playtest shows that they are pushing things even further to make classes more unique.
So, until I see otherwise, I have faith that WotC will find a 4e way to have the psion exhibit some unique mechanics within the 4e framework. Either way, I am really, really eager to see it!
There's no particular reason why the psionic classes need to cover all 4 roles, or why there have to be 4 of them (particularly if the subtitle on the cover wasn't just a placeholder).
That seems to be the trend, as displayed with the primal power source, so I'm just making the assumption that this trend will continue.
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The 3.x psuedo-leader-esque psionic classes were Ardent and Divine Mind, but in 4e terminology those two seem like they would be more of a hash between divine classes and psionic classes; maybe they'll end up as paragon paths that requires divine/psionic multiclassing if they don't just get dropped entirely.
Very likely. It seems there's more of a focus now on keeping each power source's theme separate.
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I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior, myself; it's been around for every version of psionics since 2e, but they've got all the flavor of a stale cracker. I mean, maybe the flavor is psychometabolism/self-buffing heavy, but I could really see it being dropped. Probably won't be, though.
I imagine they'll give it more identity, much as they've done with the sorcerer.
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But the Soulknife was too flavorful to be dropped or relegated to a paragon path, and iffy as a defender, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see five psionic classes.
. Maybe in 3.0 they were crappy, but 3.5 is, in my opinion, the best Psionics have ever been at! Save for the part where, you know, they were completely abandoned and forgotten 
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