General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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encountering a villian early, deflate him? Or give as is?
Very brief background of relevant details:
*The campaign is very player-driven (go where they want, and they drive the story. I just pepper in stuff)
* There is a very tough bad guy (think of it as a miniboss) that was already conceptualized _and hinted at_ as being several levels higher than the PCs (my thought process was that they would encounter it much later down the road)
* Knowing the above, the PCs are now planning to go confront the miniboss with the help of the royal guard.
* For reasons too lengthy to explain, the miniboss is confined to his location, so he will be there when the PCs and royal guard get there (so I do NOT have the option of saying "he's not home" as a way of avoiding this for now)
So now I'm left pondering this question:
1) Should I use the miniboss as he was already conceptualized and hinted at (i.e. much higher level), even though that means the players might end up doing less work than the royal guard in handling most of it?
or,
2) Should I reduce the difficulty of the miniboss to be more on par with the PCs current capabilities. Though that means with the help of the royal guard it is likely the fight will be very anticlimactic since they're expecting something very difficult...
I mean, I want it to be a fun/memorable encounter (hence, I lean towards #1 but then the players will be taking a backseat (which I always dislike) so I start leaning towards #2... but then that takes me back to it being anticlimatic and very unmemorable... which puts me back to #1.
I am thinking I might have part of the royal guard incapacitated (in a fair way, based on what the miniboss can do) and, thus, up the participation value of the PCs. But this will be tricky to pull off without it seeming "too convenient"
Or, I could just make this so overwhelming that the PCs might end up running...
If I'm feeling very desperate, I do have one option that would delay this encounter but it would come off as very "dm fiat" and i'd lose any good will from my players who are somewhat looking forward to this miniboss.
Anyway, thoughts? suggestions?
Edit: I have details about this specific situation added in post #28 of this thread
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Last edited by fba827; 26th June 2009 at 06:34 AM..
Go with #1 and have the players run the royal guard.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
If you're running a sandbox style game and the players bite off more than they can chew, let them. Run the bad guy at full strength. Pull no punches.
He'll probably waste the guards first. After all, they're more powerful than the PCs. Make it messy.
If the PCs run, let them. You've just made it that much more cool when they come back to try to beat him the second time.
If the PCs stay to fight, let them. Try not to kill them outright. Knocking them out, as long as it isn't cheesy is fine. I'm not sure what you're running, but in 4e, you can just decide to subdue with the final blow. The first time you do that, the PCs will really be worried. Force them to be the bad guys errand boys. Better yet, turn them loose all together and watch them try to explain how the whole royal guard got pasted, but they got away.
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Well, unfortunately, your description may be too brief, as it's hard to be sure what options you might best employ without knowing any real details of the boss.
But I imagine you wouldn't want your players reading this, so you may be choosing caution in that regard.
Still, thoughts...First, the mini-boss can always die...or the PC's can think he's dead and then have the boss come back. As an undead. As a clone. As a badly scarred and now really angry cyborg with breathing problems! Depending on the location, you can end the fight any number of ways that would seem like a victory, but leave you the option to add in a surprise. This may not work so well if any of the players are Order of the Stick fans though.
Second, you can scale down the power of the Royal Guard for the fight and the boss, to make it more evenly matched, or you can come up with some way to eliminate the guardsmen, perhaps a betrayal from within.
Another choice is have the place where the miniboss is under attack from somebody else when the PC's and guard arrive. Someone who may or may not be friendly to them. Watching the cinematic from the Wrath of the Lich King may show how it could be set up.
That's about it for my thoughts. Not sure if any of these will work for you though.
Running a sandbox game instead of plot-driven one doesn't have much sense if you change the opponents to be "appropriate challenge". They are as they are - the PCs have to plan their actions carefully. If you modify things behind the scenes, player's choices are no longer meaningful.
I thing Greatwyrm's advice is a good one. Have the boss defeat the guards first, then capture the party if they don't retreat. You may leave some of the guards alive too - if the opponent didn't want to kill the party, he may need the others for something too.
In previous editions, you could have a monster/NPC five levels higher and this could make the PCs hesitate a lot.
In 4E, without making that NPC a Solo? Not even a contest.
Thus, my answer would be: run the encounter as planned, and pull no punches.
However, unless the NPC is a Solo at least five levels higher than the PC party, they won't even need the Royal Guard.
Meaning: for your concerns to come true (that the NPCs will overshadow the PCs) I'm thinking the Royal Guard itself needs to be perhaps five levels higher than the PCs (and that's assuming they're of the Soldier role) and the BBEG perhaps 10 levels higher. Yes, a full tier. And if he isn't a Solo, and isn't surrounded by allies and underlings, he really should think about fleeing a.s.a.p.
4E is a game of action economy, and unless you completely discard all pre-4E notions about level disparity, your players will grab all the spotlight anyway!
Zapp
(To instill some proper fear of the Underdark into my players, I had to resort to a Balhannoth. Yes, that meant a level 13 Elite against my party, who was level four at that time.
Anything less, and they would 1) have attacked and 2) they would have won. Single non-solo creatures simply do not work in 4E as written.
I learned this lesson the hard way, when they at 2nd level trounced a Trap Haunt; a level 8 Lurker. In 3E, this would have made for an interesting encounter. In 4E, it didn't stand a chance which made for a fight that not only was unexciting, but frustrating and whiffy too... And no, I hadn't read Stalker's excellent "guide to anti-grind" back then)
If the miniboss is truly stuck at this location, whilch is accessible anytime by PCs & allies, obviously he is dead meat. The situation then doesn't sound exciting at all to me, I'd be tempted to say "OK, the Royal Guard kill the miniboss" and get on to something more interesting.
I guess if you want to run the fight, do it as is. At least this could be a good opportunity to show what tough hombres the Royal Guard are, which will greatly increase player satisfaction later in the campaign when they exceed them in power. You could set up some friendly or not so friendly rivalry dynamics, wity haughty, arrogant Guards, a more friendly guard, "Stay back, kids - this is Man's work" and such.
I'd leave the mini-boss stats as is, no reason he needs to be beatable by the PCs alone, and they have done the work to get the Guard to beat him. They should be rewarded for good planning, not have it negated by GM fiat.
Edit: If the PCs can't hit the BBEG at all with his current defenses, there is a case for lowering AC etc & increasing hp. If he's an Elite, make him a Solo of lower level, with the same XP total.
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If you're running a sandbox style game and the players bite off more than they can chew, let them. Run the bad guy at full strength. Pull no punches.
He'll probably waste the guards first. After all, they're more powerful than the PCs. Make it messy.
If the PCs run, let them. You've just made it that much more cool when they come back to try to beat him the second time.
If the PCs stay to fight, let them. Try not to kill them outright. Knocking them out, as long as it isn't cheesy is fine. I'm not sure what you're running, but in 4e, you can just decide to subdue with the final blow. The first time you do that, the PCs will really be worried. Force them to be the bad guys errand boys. Better yet, turn them loose all together and watch them try to explain how the whole royal guard got pasted, but they got away.
Bingo. Sandbox game = you warned them.
If you can in any way work in an NPC into the fight that the PCs are emotionally attached to, do so. And kill 'em. Make the PCs realize how screwed they are.
But yeah, try not to kill them. Teach them the lesson first ("know when to grind those levels, son!"). If that doesn't work, then kill 'em. Kill 'em all. Have their backup PCs come in with said monster unleashed on the world because the previous PCs got too trigger happy.
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I think the battle will be very unsatisfying for the PC's if they take the backseat and let the Royal Guard do most of the fighting, regardless of the BBEG's level and powers. So why can't you give the BBEG some help? Perhaps a small army of undead, a gnoll cult, orc mercenaries, or just evil humans. Let the Royal Guard burst in first and fight the skeleton army (or whatever is appropiate) in a fierce battle. After a few rounds of heavy fighting, all the while PC's standing in the back, let the BBEG appear (teleport? stealth? secret door? invisibility?) and attack the PC's. Unless he is a Solo at least four levels higher, the PC's should be able to stand their ground. They might run. Or one or two Royal Guards leave the battle with the skeleton army to attack the BBEG and assist the PC's, and will be the first to get whacked by BBEG.
Years ago, my party wanted to fight two nemesises who had sided with an evil thieves' guild. They took a bunch of "honorable thieves", and a bunch of monk followers, so I added in more evil thieves. There was a massive fight going on between evil thieves and "good" thieves and monks, while the thief/swashbuckler PC was dueling his nemesis in a clock tower (stole that from a movie), and the other PC's were running around the building to find and fight their illusionist nemesis. It was great! (as a sidenote, I just narrated the fight between thieves and monks, rolling a die every now and then to see which side was doing better)
Last edited by White Tornado; 25th June 2009 at 03:11 PM..
Reason: Forgot cinematic detail
If the BBEG is meant to be much higher level, the only way the PCs should reasonably beat him is through trickery.
If he can be killed by the guard, why do the PCs need to be involved? Make it so the guards can't beat him without the PCs helping. A trap that must be broken out of, some part of the scenery that must be leveraged for advantage.
If you can in any way work in an NPC into the fight that the PCs are emotionally attached to, do so. And kill 'em. Make the PCs realize how screwed they are.
But yeah, try not to kill them. Teach them the lesson first ("know when to grind those levels, son!"). If that doesn't work, then kill 'em. Kill 'em all. Have their backup PCs come in with said monster unleashed on the world because the previous PCs got too trigger happy.
Yep. Let the guy waste the guards, let the PCs know they got the guards killed, then let them go do more appropriate things for a few levels. If they persist, then have at them with all the villain can do. Maybe the dice will go wild and let the party win.
1) Have the PCs play the royal guard too, making the die rolls etc.
2) Change the mini-boss so it becomes two separate fights, maybe he has allies or something. Focus only on the part of the fight the PCs are involved in, don't roll any dice for the royal guard, their actions are just handled by description. You can decide if you want the guard to win or lose their part of the battle. I'd have the PCs get to do the exciting part of the fight, squaring off against the actual boss, while the guard go up against his allies.
3) Problems arise with the royal guard. They have a traitor in the ranks, or are called away on more important business elsewhere. Perhaps the king, or the wicked captain in charge of the guard, decide this isn't worth risking his men's lives over. Maybe the king is fickle.
4) The mini-boss has heard about this large force planning to attack him, probably due to the afore-mentioned traitor, and legged it before the PCs arrive. This is quite good because it allows you to delay the final big battle until a story appropriate point and build up more anticipation.
Given the players are looking forward to the mini-boss, but you want to avoid having NPCs do most of the work I'd go with either #2 or your own suggestion to use a weakened mini-boss but have all the royal guard taken out by the magic power of Plot.
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Last edited by Doug McCrae; 25th June 2009 at 04:04 PM..
I don't know if this is feasible in the circumstances (you mentioned the miniboss was tied to his current location), but would it be possible to do the following scenario?
1) PCs run the Royal Guard as well as their own characters.
2) Spectacular combat takes place.
3) Miniboss has an escape hatch that lets him slip away at the last moment. His plans are foiled for the moment, but he'll be back, and the PCs will have to fight him alone when he returns.
Give the mini-boss some heretofore unrevealed 'special henchmen' for the PC's to tangle with. Remember that the PC's need to be protagonists, even if they aren't the neccessarily the big damn heroes.
If you go this route, don't make the special-guest henchman too tough... you don't want to give the PC's the impression that their choice to involve the Royal Guard was irrelevant. Doing that should make the encounter easier. The special henchman are more for the surprise factor and to keep the PC's from being purely spectators in the climactic scene.
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