4E playtesting or lack thereof

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by ggroy

Chess?

Hah!

Well, I think Chess has gone through a number of major revisions and developments, too, after it was released to the general public.

(Besides, its rules can fit on a playing card)

-O

[Joshua Randall]

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that WotC didn't playtest (part of) 4e at all.

So what?

In what way is this affecting anyone's life?

The game is not toally flawless... uh... yeah. So what?

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by Mallus

But errata are free of charge.

As to 'enhancements' to the system which really address issues in the original design... well, they're going to cost you money. Note this is currently more true for the previous edition than 4e. A lot of later additions to 3e where meant to address various issues with the rule set, and for my money, much of that later material was good.

Enhancements are additional material added on to 'enhance' the supposedly functional base material. This is additional content and can be sold as such. Errata is a mistake correction that should be provided at no cost.

Take a look at the material. Is this data intended to add to existing structure or replace part of the structure? A replacement = errata rather than enhancement.

Example: Stealth Rules. These were altered, meant to replace the section in the PHB 1, and sold as part of the pagecount of PHB 2. That is charging for errata.

Originally Posted by Mallus

Now that's funny! Software patches may be easier to disseminate, they're not easier to write.

Correct, but that is irrelevant to the customer. The patch is a fix for something that isn't functioning properly. The customer should not be stuck with a poor performing product because the repair proves to be difficult.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by ggroy

Chess?

I find the stalemate rules dissatisfying, and there aren't enough meanginfully different opening moves.

[knifie_sp00nie]

Originally Posted by ggroy

Chess?

I'd say that chess has had a few flaws that got ugly patches. Castling and en passant stick out as afterthoughts to the otherwise elegant rules. Then again, chess itself has many historical versions that were tested and refined over time to become classic chess. And like RPG editions, there are rivals and branches that have huge followings such as Xiangqi and Shogi.

Even Go, with about 4000 years of history is not immune to errata. There are several alternate scoring systems and a few different takes on handling ko. Komi is a patch on the first-player advantage problem and its point value has changed over the years.

So two of the oldest, most played games in the history of humanity were not born flawless and have been refined and patched over their lifetimes. These are also perfect-information games that don't deal with random probability or the crazy ideas humans can come up with to solve problems.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Unless patches are seamless to the end user they are a burden and contribute to product failure.

Given the number of patch day incidents that Blizzard has suffered without its product failing, I am doubtful as to that. At least when WOTC makes mistakes, I can fix them myself. Heck, even when they don't make mistakes, I can always make my own changes.

Ah well, if you want the errata, it's available. If you want it printed out, I cannot fault Wizards for leaving it in your hands for the most part. Now if they made some mistake, and you got a book that was misprinted, then that would be something they should replace. And I suppose they could produce content so bad that it'd need to be replaced, but I haven't seen that happen yet.

And learn some history of chess folks, please. Heck, even Bobby Fischer wanted the rules changed.

[malraux]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Example: Stealth Rules. These were altered, meant to replace the section in the PHB 1, and sold as part of the pagecount of PHB 2. That is charging for errata.

But the stealth errata was released for free as well.

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by malraux

But the stealth errata was released for free as well.

It sure was.

I am publishing volume 2 of my epic roleplaying game. 10% of the pagecount will be fixing goofs from volume 1. I will put a pdf on my website so players can download that 10% for nothing. Am I charging any customers for errata? umm...........YES.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Enhancements are additional material added on to 'enhance' the supposedly functional base material. This is additional content and can be sold as such. Errata is a mistake correction that should be provided at no cost.

Realistically speaking, the difference between the two can be vanishingly slim (hence my putting 'enhancements' in ticks, to denote irony). Did I mention I'm also a software developer?

Example: Stealth Rules. These were altered, meant to replace the section in the PHB 1, and sold as part of the pagecount of PHB 2. That is charging for errata.

Aren't the Stealth changes also available as errata? It might be a case of pagecount padding (which doesn't bother me in the case of the PHB II, since I find it to be chock-full of good material).

Correct, but that is irrelevant to the customer. The customer should not be stuck with a poor performing product because the repair proves to be difficult.

Well that's just it, is the 4e customer suck with a 'poorly-performing product'? I don't think so. The errata have been timely, and the problems that needed addressing aren't game-breaking in practice.

[Eridanis]

Well, lookee here. A thread based on a locked thread, that quickly turns into 5 pages of quotes from another board, personal attacks, and namecalling. I don't have time to re-read this thread, but it's locked until I can read through again tonight for any further moderation.

Leave this topic alone for a few days, please. If another thread is started to continue this argument, it will be closed and the offenders banned.