Fighting a God, Divine Strategies

[Abaddonn]

So, its finally come down to it. After a 10 year campaign, the party I dm for have reached epic levels (26th) and are now about to face up against a god.

The god in this case is Vecna, a lesser god, but still worthy of divine treatment. So what im looking for here is advice and ideas on how to make this combat and adventure truely epic. The combat is to be, eventually, final. No running and hiding from this one. One side or the other will die.

1: As a god of magic, what must have spells and feats, and combinations do you think a god MUST have to open a can of whoopass on the adventurers?

2: Anyone know of any modules or pre-made material that deals with something similar? Our next game is in a few days so im running short of time and any ready to go material will be helpful. From maps of epic areas to pre-made adventures or stories of your own divine combats to provide inspiration.

Thats all I can think of right now, but im sure more to come.

Thanks for any advice, and looking forward to hearing your ideas!
cheers,
Ab.

[wedgeski]

3rd Edition?

If so, I think the climactic encounter of the Savage Tide Paizo adventure path (in the very last print edition of Dungeon) might be exactly what you're looking for, at least in terms of inspiration and how the hell you actually execute encounters with very high level opponents.

[RangerWickett]

Really? I mean, no diss on Paizo, but the final fight in Savage Tide just looked like "Here's a room that is too small for 6 PCs and a gargantuan opponent. Fight!"

An epic climax demands an epic location. Whether you're on a desolate wasteland covered in leering piles of bones, or clinging to the corpse of an elder god plummeting eternally through the infinite layers of the Abyss, or even something as mundane as a crumbling castle ruin, you need a set that adds to the encounter. Choose however serious or over the top is appropriate for your game, but make sure the location lends itself to dynamic combat.

A dynamic arena has things that the PCs can take advantage of, and locations that are hazardous (to the PCs, but not necessarily to the villain). Adding in a goal or a time limit for either the PCs or the villain (and then bending/breaking the rules to make sure that the combat lasts long enough for the goal or time limit to actually matter) lends to tension.

Now I've never played epic 3e. I imagine you'll want to give Vecna lots of ways to turn the PCs' one-hit-kill attacks into annoyances rather than victories, because a proper epic battle should go for a while. I recall the amusingly fast end to one storyhour, where the 20th level PCs prepare for a big showdown with the Githyanki Lich Queen, only to have her go down in one round when the PC sorcerer time stops and gates in a titan and a pit fiend, who destroy the main boss in less than one combat round.

Give me some idea of what the group has done in lead-up to this point.

[wedgeski]

Originally Posted by RangerWickett

Really? I mean, no diss on Paizo, but the final fight in Savage Tide just looked like "Here's a room that is too small for 6 PCs and a gargantuan opponent. Fight!"

Well, admittedly, I never ran it, but I liked the ideas and advice presented.

[Nyeshet]

Originally Posted by Abaddonn

1: As a god of magic, what must have spells and feats, and combinations do you think a god MUST have to open a can of whoopass on the adventurers?

My first thought is an anti-magic field - expanded - that does not affect his own magic. So all mortal magic within, say, 60 to 120 ft of him is dispelled, but his own spells work as normal. The DC, due to divine bonuses, etc, is nearly impossible to get past; perhaps rolling a 17+ will allow the mortal magic-users spells to succeed. However, Vecna is immune or highly resistant to virtually everything. The magic bonuses to weapons and shields are similarly dispelled in this field: only masterwork weaponry and armor against Vecna. This, of course, leaves the mortals at a distinct disadvantage.

Granted, this is the way I would play it. Note that in most myths in which a mortal faces a deity, they usually have divine backup or patrons. So a weapon created by a deific smith might still work normally, for example.

How exactly are you statting Vecna? In Deities and Demigods, Vecna is statted (if I recall correctly) as a 30th level magic user (necro? cleric? Or maybe he was a 20th cleric / 20th necro?) as well as a demi-lich. The stats for demi-liches alone are already epic enough to give your group trouble. Add in the deity template upon *that* and I seriously do not understand how your party thinks they have a chance of winning. At the least, Vecna likely has multiple phylacteries scattered about the planes, each guarded by various epic beasts such as abominations, psuedo-natural great wyrms, winter wights, etc. Prime candidates for his phylacteries include his eye and hand, actually.

How high a level are you giving Vecna, and in what classes? What level of deity are you making him (heroic? lesser? intermediate? I doubt greater...) If you are not using the stats in Deities and Demigods, then perhaps you could draw upon later classes that might suit him such as the actual Necromancer class? Or some of the more interesting PrCs?

What about the guards? And I doubt he will be alone, unable to call upon 'allies'. I would expect him to call near epic or epic undead to aid him. His ability to control undead is likely significant, after all. And what of the setting? Will they assault him in his own divine demiplane? Or will they lure him elsewhere for the attack? How? How will you keep him from planeshifting away? Mortal magic is usually unable to halt deific forms of plane shift, teleport, etc. And as a deity of magic, what is to stop him from simply removing your player's ability to use magic - especially on his home turf?

Anyway, given a few more details we should be able to help you more.

[Prisoner6]

Maybe I'm going against the grain here, but gods are ... well ... gods. In my campaigns, gods don't lose fights.

For starters, he should be able to summon arbitrary numbers of ultra-powerful servants as a free action. Let's say every round he summons a "high priest of Vecna" or 5, just as a free action. All of these guys should be epic level, and get +5 inspiration bonus to EVERYTHING, just because they're in the presence of their god. Once the party gets outnumbered by about 5 to 1, Vecna will head into the lounge and watch the battle on his 48" high-def crystal ball.

What feats does he have? ALL OF THEM - and every single spell he casts should be maximized, empowered, silent, and ever other f-in modifier you can slap on it, even if it makes it a "level 18" spell. Vecna knows no limits ... he's a god.

Every round, he casts Time Stop first. This spell is maximized and extended, so instead of getting d4+1 rounds, he gets 10. That's right. Every round Vecna gets 10 rounds of time stop to do whatever he wants. Since Vecna has a caster level of at least 20, he'll just set up lots of spells with nice long durations (Cloudkill anyone?), summon a whole mob of nasties (like undead, which won't be affected by Cloudkill), cure himself completely, and then head to gym to work out for a bit.

He WILL widdle the party down. He's too smart to face them one-on-one. He's going to keep throwing minions at them until they're drained, severely. The party is going to pounded on with TONS of negative levels... In fact, Vecna has a personal bodyguard of 10 liches who do nothing but cast energy drain spells every round.

Vecna is not stupid. He has plenty of contigency plans for when combat goes bad. In the event that combat starts for him, he will enact one of those plans ... presumably teleporting away to let his minions pound on the part some more.

He will have every protective spell in existence protecting him, because he saw this coming. He will be flying to keep out melee, improved invisible to be unlocatable, and then have 5 illusions of himself running around to distract the party while he casts Wail of the Banshee every round from his unknown location.

HE chooses the place of the final battle. The terrain will favor him. While he's flying around, the party will have to cross a hallway where EVERY SQUARE has a permanent Symbol of Insantity on it.

If your party goesn't accuse you of cheating ... you're doing it wrong.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Prisoner6

HE chooses the place of the final battle. The terrain will favor him. While he's flying around, the party will have to cross a hallway where EVERY SQUARE has a permanent Symbol of Insantity on it.

If your party doesn't accuse you of cheating ... you're doing it wrong.

I suspect you're missing the point of this exercise.

Think Deities and Demigods, circa 1e. Think of Lolth and her 66 HP...

[Abaddonn]

Thanks so much for the feedback guys, it exactly what iv been looking for.

Originally Posted by wedgeski

3rd Edition?
If so, I think the climactic encounter of the Savage Tide Paizo adventure path (in the very last print edition of Dungeon) might be exactly what you're looking for, at least in terms of inspiration and how the hell you actually execute encounters with very high level opponents.

This is great stuff, iv enjoyed reading through it. As has been said, while the location of the final battle isnt detailed enough to be astounding, the story line and build up to fighting a Demon Prince is very interesting. The complexities of the plot to weaken Demogorgon before fighting him are perfect.

An epic climax demands an epic location. Whether you're ....... make sure the location lends itself to dynamic combat.

......I imagine you'll want to give Vecna lots of ways to turn the PCs' one-hit-kill attacks into annoyances rather than victories......... I recall the amusingly fast end to one storyhour, where the 20th level PCs prepare for a big showdown with the Githyanki Lich Queen, only to have her go down in one round.

All very good points. Funny you should mention the Lich Queen, they did the quest chain some time ago and went through her in much the same way your players did....very fast. It is the memory of that that made seek out ideas here to make sure Vecna is more of a challenge.
They are an experienced group, having fought together for a long time they know how to work efficiently as a group, bouncing off each others power well. They seem to excell at burst damage, they go in hard and fast and slay quickly, which has stunned me a number of times against very powerful opponents. They have beaten a number of the more nasty beasts in the epic handbook quite tidily, which has impressed me. That said, if their fast attack plans dont go well, they seem to stumble a bit in later rounds.

How exactly are you statting Vecna? In Deities and Demigods.....

Im going to use that version but epic'd out. probably 30/30 wizard/priest, i actually think he deserves more power than that but with the addition of divine powers and minions i think it will be more than enough.
I like the idea of the anti-magic field, but one of the players is a mage and i dont want to exclude him completely from the fight. As realistic as it would be, it wouldnt be much fun for that player, and fun is the goal here. That said, I have made Vecna a master of golem creation, he has many mithril and adamantium golems at his disposal, all of which are immune to magic....this has something of the same effect without making one player go sulk in the corner.

They do have a divine patron backing them from the shadows, also they already have the eye of Vecna, and its to be a race against time to get the hand before confonting Vecna himself. Wielding both artifacts will weaken the God. As for why he doesnt plane shift away, the idea is that they will lure him with the hand and eye, hopefully defeat that aspect and so banish Vecna to his own plane where he cannot leave for a set peirod of time. Still considering this though.... That said, he will be free to teleport across his own plane, so the fight should rage through many of the epic environments RangerWickett describes. I to love cool dynamic environments.

Maybe I'm going against the grain here, but gods are ... well ... gods. In my campaigns, gods don't lose fights....

This is how i have played but they have reached a lvl where things are changing. Also I have read much material where god and demon princes etc dont seem as untouchable as i always thought. Grazzt gets done over by a single epic character Iggwilv, in the old modules the Blood Throne Orcus dies to the adventurers, in the history of the Hells arch-devils seem to drop and rise like flies in their own internal struggles, etc. Add to this that Vecna was once not so long ago a mortal, it allows for a touch of vulnerability i would hesitate in giving to an eternal greater god.

In the end its time for a change from just bigger meaner monsters. The glory of this game is that the imagination is the limit, and it seems these players have earned the right to rise up into an even greater arena. The epic rules allow for awesome power, and i think its time the adventures, villains, and environments reflected this.

Long post. Its great hearing your ideas and opinions, keep em coming. I'll post what i decide to use as the setting and stats once i get it nailed down.

Thnx!
Ab.

[cdrcjsn]

Most high level fights are over in 3 rounds or less (albeit 2 hours long in real time).

You might want to find some way to stretch out that fight scene a bit. Perhaps by combining it with some ritual that reduces Vecna's power to something PCs can manage.

You might also want to look at some 4e design structure with regards to solo bosses (i.e. don't stat him according to regular PC rules, but rather as a unique monster). Have stages in the fight that make it dynamic (he gets stronger when bloodied, waves of minions, etc).

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

A few ways to prolong the fight could be:

1. Vecna's Sarcophagi is a suit of golem armour that acts as the immortal's phylactery. The armour must be destroyed before Vecna can be injured. Vecna can attack through the armour normally of course and the Sarcophagi Golem attacks of its own accord (at Vecna's direction).

2. Strike Team: Anyone penetrating that far into Vecna's defenses will face a select bunch of handpicked villains. Basically Vecna's champions. This could be an eclectic bunch of evil NPCs and monsters individually almost on a par with the PCs themselves. Given Vecna is a God of Secrecy I'd just try and pick the most obscure combinations of monsters, classes and templates you could think of...Sentient Arcane Ooze Alienist, Half-Bone Golem/Half Shadow Dragon Warlock, Ghost Shambling Mound Cavalier mounted on a Vampire Treant Nightmare, Two-headed Beholder with awakened blackstone gigant body.

3. Battlefield: Naturally this will work to Vecna's advantage. How about a Graveyard of Knowledge where PCs lose one spell each round (randomly determined) which Vecna gets to cast himself as a swift action? Or the entire area populated by swarms of crawling claws and eyes of fear and flame.

4. Reinforcements: If the battle is going badly for Vecna from the get-go, he could call for some reinforcements to run interference. These beings would be weaker than the strike team and probably just about good enough to delay the heroes, not defeat them.

[roguerouge]

Have Vecna have a ridiculous ability for one round, only to be negated dramatically by the divine patron. Make that choice by the players useful.

Also, shouldn't someone be ready to replace Vecna in the pantheon?

[Prisoner6]

Originally Posted by Mallus

I suspect you're missing the point of this exercise.

Think Deities and Demigods, circa 1e. Think of Lolth and her 66 HP...

Oh, I get the point. I just disagree with it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Good thread, some day the PCs in my game will have to slaughter the gods, and I'm terrified thinking about how I can run that...

I wanted to ask, though. Are they going straight for Vecna, or have they been "weakening" him? I mean, taking out his champions, anyone he might have loaned a divine rank to, razing his temples, etc..? The rules probably don't have stipulations for such things weakening a god, but I'd think it would help. In my case, I want the PCs (gestalt) to start deicide by level 20 if not earlier. I'm already going to have to lower the power of the gods for that to even be remotely feasible. But I thought I could at least structure adventures around doing those kinds of things first, to set up a god for destruction (and give a mechanical justification for why the hell they can be killed by the PCs).

Also, what are the rules for what happens to a god's divine rank when he's slain? Do the slayers just get it? Does it dissipate (you can only "earn" divine ranks over time or whatever)? I figured the party's deity would have most of the power go to him, and I'd eventually reward them with rank 0, to become demi-gods.

EDIT: As far as AMF goes, just use the level 6 version, not some epic version. Thus, all of Vecna's spell work in it, but the wizard, who should have some epic spells by now can still do something. He just won't have many spells he can use. Really, not much different than level 1. Of course, I don't consider epic spells to be "mortal magic." Maybe that goes against RAW.
The other option would be a Warblade or Fighter with some Martial Study feats punching through the AMF with Iron Heart Surge.

[Primal]

Well, Deities & Demigods has 3.0 stats for Vecna, which would be a good starting point for his abilities (just upgrade them to 3.5 and give him some epic feats, spells and magic items).

It was about 20 years ago when we played 'Vecna lives!', and as far as I can recall, our 15th level PCs couldn't even *touch* him in battle (it didn't matter that we wielded the Sword of Kas). Our 11th level PCs in FR managed to kill a demigod's avatar, though, but only via supercareful planning and tactics plus powerful allies (including using some devilish Wild Magic spells and Psionics that ignored Magic Resistance). Even then it was a very, very close call, and we lost a couple of PCs in the battle. A deity's avatar or true form... in 3E I wouldn't even dream of killing them, even at epic levels.

[Cyberhawk]

One thing you may want to play with: Vecna is not just a god of magic, he's also a god of secrets.

If any of the PCs have anything hidden in their pasts, any adventures where they maybe hit the wrong target or screwed up somewhere this is where it comes back to bite them.