General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Unfortunately, no, it doesn't. I use the wiki on occasion, but most pages are very low in detail, meaning I usually have to go to the primary sources to get anything other than the most cursory outline.
Then we are on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to Faerun. You are looking for more depth of detail than I am.
The wiki provided me with tons of ideas and information. I did reference books, namely the 3ed Campaign Setting book, plus the Vilhon Reach and Lands of Intrigue pdfs. However, the wiki was my primary source.
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Originally Posted by Brother Richard
.....if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.
I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalized changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.
I am confused about Brother Richard's use of the term "shared setting". Aside from those sitting at the table playing; who would be affected by the killing off of any powerful NPC?, what effect would it have on others if the consequences and ripple effect of the assassination did not jibe with anybody but the PCs expectations?
As a game setting who beyond those players in each group that play in FR "share" it?
I am confused about Brother Richard's use of the term "shared setting". Aside from those sitting at the table playing; who would be affected by the killing off of any powerful NPC?, what effect would it have on others if the consequences and ripple effect of the assassination did not jibe with anybody but the PCs expectations?
As a game setting who beyond those players in each group that play in FR "share" it?
Maybe he's talking about the RPGA and Living Forgotten Realms? Other than that, I'm as non-plussed as you are. What goes on at my table isn't a part of any shared setting.
/M
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This would certainly be my preferred approach to running FR, although fear of Primal-esque canon lawyers might deter me from actually running the game.
I feel you, but this is a situation that can fortunately be solved with very little hassle — I ask canon lawyers to take a hike.
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I find this "You shouldn't be running FR if you aren't going to stick to canon and read tons of novels & supplements" thing odd.
I understand it, so it's not so much odd for me as it is extremely frustrating.
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You might think people would be glad that others are interested in their favourite setting, rather than saying that only canon lawyers should be using it.
Well, IME, canon lawyers don't really want to play in their preferred setting so much as they want to show off their knowledge of it and flaunt that over other people. In my opinion, being a canon lawer is less about love for a given setting than it is about exerting control over others and making oneself the center of attention.
You didn't know that Alustriel is a Chosen, which would be in a book about it, and also, Silverymoon, while one city is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POLITICALLY. it is the center of the North. Without it, there would be huge conceuquences.
I don't see anything about Chosen in my grey box.
Why should they exist in my Realms?
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I don't feel it is the settings fault if you didn't even read a full source about the main city you are using. i feel like you would get a similar reaction in almost any campaign setting not homebrewed. if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.
I'd extrapolate from the other nearby places in the Grey Box and ignore the other setting stuff. The consequences of an assassination would be whatever I deemed them to be.
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I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalzied changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.
There's nothing shared about the setting, though. It's me and my players, and in this theoretical game, I've said "Grey box is the only canonical source for the Realms. No novels, no other sourcebooks, no Avatar, no Spellplague. This is how it is."
I can do whatever I want to the Realms. I can do whatever I want to the Star Wars Universe.
Setting canon should be used for inspiration, and never for limitation. I want to read a setting book for ideas of what I can make happen - not for limits and things that I should not change, lest there be dire consequences.
I can do whatever I want to the Realms. I can do whatever I want to the Star Wars Universe.
Ironicly my idea (loose idea not run yet, or even close to ready to run) for a non canon star wars game, one where we play Phanotm Menece, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the sith...however they are nothing like the movies. Infact take only the orginal trilogy (new hope, empire, jedi) and take what they say about history to be the only canon... is the regarded by all the canon lawyers as an awsome idea...
so we have no jar jar, we have obewan be yoda's student, we have vador hunt down and kill the jedi...
kinda funny how no one says "But jar jar...or but 3po was built by anikin"
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Well, IME, canon lawyers don't really want to play in their preferred setting so much as they want to show off their knowledge of it and flaunt that over other people. In my opinion, being a canon lawer is less about love for a given setting than it is about exerting control over others and making oneself the center of attention.
This is so true. The FR Forum Lead from the Wizards Forums fits this to a tee.
What exactly should be considered "reasonable" information that a DM should know about the Realms...
Another question would be the differences between a "reasonable" amount of knowledge about the Realms, and the amount of knowledge generally perceived to be necessary to run the Realms. In my opinion, there is a significant gap between these two things.
its fine if you decide to use only certain things, but you would encounter problems in any shared setting. The problem with FR and not most other settings is the overload of canon from novels, but none of the examples given have really addressed problems with issues stemming from this canon.
You know, I've been following this thread but there's something I don't think either side has actually said (perhaps I missed it?)
What exactly should be considered "reasonable" information that a DM should know about the Realms...
"Reasonable" is a sliding scale that depends upon the DM- how much does he need to run a good game without going into information overload.
As I stated before, for me, its the stuff in the game books and nothing more. And even then, I generally only keep the stuff I'm intending to use immanently or just used recently at my mental fingertips. Everything else, I can look up.
its fine if you decide to use only certain things, but you would encounter problems in any shared setting. The problem with FR and not most other settings is the overload of canon from novels, but none of the examples given have really addressed problems with issues stemming from this canon.
What problems would I run into, if I ran a grey box only FR game?
Besides the obvious conversion issues? Probably the herd of old school players beating a path to your door.
Hah!
No, really - Brother Richard mentioned "problems" and I'm confused what those would be. I love rolling with minimalist settings, and love picking up the loose ends and making them my own.
I don't think conversion would be a big issue, honestly. The grey box is largely system-free, as I remember - as are most of the original FR series booklets. It's mostly a map and a gazetteer, much like Greyhawk but somewhat more detailed.
It has been a few years since I've looked, though.
You know, I've been following this thread but there's something I don't think either side has actually said (perhaps I missed it?)
What exactly should be considered "reasonable" information that a DM should know about the Realms...
That is very dependent on the DM and the players in each group that plays in FR. As was shown up thread, I find that what is available on the Wiki as a primary source, the 3rd Ed Campaign book, and two older regional books (free downloads from WOTC) which I referenced to flesh out stuff from the Wiki, were plenty for me. However, others like Underthumb want more detail.
For me this is why FR has been the flagship setting. If you want minimal background to build upon you can, and if you want a setting with a detailed intertwined history it is there.
Brother Richard, you keep refering to FR as a "shared" setting, and seem to be using FR being a "shared" setting as means to suggest limits on what can and can't be done by DMs and players. Since nothing done at any tables other than ones you, or anybody, plays at effects other tables, how is FR a "shared" setting? And since what happens at other folk's tables does not effect you, why should you care?
Besides the obvious conversion issues? Probably the herd of old school players beating a path to your door.
Yup. I'd be knocking
And the OGB is relatively system free as I recall. Have fun. I sold mine a few years back but I'm seriously thinking of picking it up again-that or the 4E FRCG- they seem more similar than any other versions of the setting (i.e. here's a nice overview, now take the ball and run with it, which is the way I prefer my setting books)
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You know, I've been following this thread but there's something I don't think either side has actually said (perhaps I missed it?)
What exactly should be considered "reasonable" information that a DM should know about the Realms...
That varies widely.
The first FR game I ever ran in was very minimalist in what the DM knew. The DM didn't even have any core campaign setting material, this was the 2e era of the late 90's so the excellent 3e FRCS hadn't been published yet, and our FLGS didn't have the 2e-era FR box set in stock. So, it was run based on what the DM had pieced together from playing in a previous FR campaign under a different DM (which was pretty loose with canon), playing Pool of Radiance on the computer years ago, reading a couple of Realms articles in Dragon, and a few novels (Elminster: Making of a Mage, and a couple of Drizzt ones I think), and owning copies of Faiths & Avatars and Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.
So, from these scattered sources he ran a FR game that was just fine since none of the other players had ever played the Realms and only vaguely knew of it as another D&D setting. If you're playing to generic D&D players that don't know the realms, or novice players who don't know D&D at all, nor the Realms from novels, you can be as minimalist as you want.
If you've got a group of hardcore fans that are the aforementioned "canon lawyers" then you'd better be one yourself, at least if you want to make them happy. The good news is that I think they are pretty rare, all things given. Yeah, they're out there (and we've even seen them in this thread), but I think my initial assertion in the OP that they are fairly rare (but memorable) seems to have been upheld by this thread.
I guess it comes down to, just make sure you know as much about the setting as the consensus of your players. For most groups, read through the FRCS and if you're going to be spending a lot of time in one area read up in detail on that area and consider getting any region-specific texts for that area if you want to be thorough. Honestly, I'd consider everything outside the core box sets and core campaign setting books for each edition (assuming you're running in the normal time depicted with that edition) as the essentials, and all other suppliments, novels, sourcebooks, Dragon articles ect. as optional.
So, from these scattered sources he ran a FR game that was just fine since none of the other players had ever played the Realms and only vaguely knew of it as another D&D setting. If you're playing to generic D&D players that don't know the realms, or novice players who don't know D&D at all, nor the Realms from novels, you can be as minimalist as you want.
Indeed, and this can apply to most anything. I've look at fantasy art from book covers, or even the back cover book blurb, and come up with ideas that weren't similar to what was found within. Heck, I only had a vague idea what Dark Sun was about, but as I was considering buying the initial campaign set, I was thinking what Defilers and Templars were. If I'd made it on my own, there's no telling how different it would have been from the official version.
I wonder what ideas people would get if they were given 12 bullet points of an existing setting...
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