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So, for clarification, is everybody basically telling Obryn that he can't or shouldn't run a FR game unless he's willing to buy the entire game line, learn all of the canon, and adhere to it religiously? Because that's really what I'm getting out of the last few pages of the 'discussion.'
The attitude seems to be that if a DM can't be bothered to drop a few thousand dollars and years of their lives on learning a D&D setting inside and out, they should instead move on to another setting or let somebody else who can meet those 'requirements' be the DM.
Since we're speaking of absurdities, that is absurd.
FWIW, I don't quite get that vibe.
What I am getting is that my inclination to stay away from the 2e-3e Realms was probably a good idea, in retrospect.
I'm also curious because, clearly, people could run Forgotten Realms games back when there were very few supplements and only a handful of bad gaming novels in the product line.
For example, I'd probably walk out if the DM started with "Alright, guys, you're travelling from Silverymoon to the village of Hommlet to investigate some rumours about a cult of Vecna...".
I wouldn't walk out, but it would sure as heck raise my eyebrows.
Personally, I wouldn't think that inserting Hommlet wouldn't be that bad, it would not seriously break Realms canon to insert one extra little village someplace, especially if adapted slightly to the Realms (like putting it in Cormyr and having a Purple Dragon Knight lead the town guard, making the local temples be to Ilmater or Torm instead of St. Cuthbert and so on).
Seriously, in a world that size it isn't a catastrophic canon break to add one little village. Porting over the City of Greyhawk or something, then that's a problem, but the Realms already has an uber-city for adventuring in Waterdeep.
Now, as to the Cult of Vecna, if he is acting like Vecna is already a deity in the Realms I'd ask point-blank if he knows he's changing Realms canon that much and re-think my involvement at that point, but if the plot of the campaign is that some cultists of Vecna have arrived from Greyhawk via spelljamming/planewalking and are trying to set up a beachhead for Vecna to enter the Realms by starting up some cults and getting some worshippers then it would be cool (and be a way to introduce the Hand of Vecna or the Sword of Kas into a Realms campaign).
So, for clarification, is everybody basically telling Obryn that he can't or shouldn't run a FR game unless he's willing to buy the entire game line, learn all of the canon, and adhere to it religiously? Because that's really what I'm getting out of the last few pages of the 'discussion.'
The attitude seems to be that if a DM can't be bothered to drop a few thousand dollars and years of their lives on learning a D&D setting inside and out, they should instead move on to another setting or let somebody else who can meet those 'requirements' be the DM.
Since we're speaking of absurdities, that is absurd.
Did you read my posts? I'm pretty explicitly saying (I said it in two different posts, I think) that I'm not expecting the DM to buy *anything*; rather, I'm suggesting that a "new" DM with experienced players (who know their canon) could run a campaign in one of the "undeveloped" areas or regions that have not seen much canon support. It's not just about FR fans -- I wouldn't expect diehard Dragonlance or Eberron fans to be comfortable with my own version and maps of a popular area (Sharn or Palanthas, for example).
So, for clarification, is everybody basically telling Obryn that he can't or shouldn't run a FR game unless he's willing to buy the entire game line, learn all of the canon, and adhere to it religiously?
No.
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The attitude seems to be that if a DM can't be bothered to drop a few thousand dollars and years of their lives on learning a D&D setting inside and out, they should instead move on to another setting or let somebody else who can meet those 'requirements' be the DM.
Since we're speaking of absurdities, that is absurd.
As absurd as a DM who can't be bothered to learn a setting at all before playing in it, with players who know and expect more authenticity out of it? Or as a filmmaker who can't bother to get the heart of a character down before spending millions to make a pretentious movie series?
Probably. Let's try not playing to the extremes here, it's probably not going to get us anywhere.
ETA: And just so everybody is clear, the example in the preceding paragraph is a deliberate absurdity on my part to represent the degree of misrepresentation that can occur, and should not be taken by anybody as an attempt to accurately represent the views of anyone. It is merely used to illustrate the way any polar extreme can be a hindrance, not an aid, to discussion.
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Originally Posted by Obryn
No, because that doesn't resemble any gaming group I've ever been a part of.
Then this may be a weakness of yours, not having run into other groups that don't resemble yours. Perhaps you might consider transferring the experience from other parts of your life? Ever read a comic book that changed artists or writers? Paid attention to Star Trek or Star Wars? Watched any sports before or after they changed some rule? Seen a movie that was based on some other property like a book, video game, or even D&D, and not been satisfied?
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Of course there's no requirement for either. I am saying in that situation, if I am DMing, I should not DM in the Realms. Which is, AFAIK, what I've been advocating - I should run games in a homebrew or a different setting entirely.
No, I really didn't think that was the crux of the discussion, we were somewhere else, slightly to the left. I suspect that there's quite a lot of that in this thread, as folks talk past each other ever so slightly, which increases the divergence, even though they're closer than they think. Happens a lot.
Last edited by Bumbles; 7th July 2009 at 03:09 AM..
As absurd as a DM who can't be bothered to learn a setting at all before playing in it, with players who know and expect more authenticity out of it? Or as a filmmaker who can't bother to get the heart of a character down before spending millions to make a pretentious movie series?
I think you know that's a pretty big mischaracterization of what I'm advocating.
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Then this may be a weakness of yours, not having run into other groups that don't resemble yours. Perhaps you might consider transferring the experience from other parts of your life? Ever read a comic book that changed artists or writers? Paid attention to Star Trek or Star Wars? Watched any sports before or after they changed some rule? Seen a movie that was based on some other property like a book, video game, or even D&D, and not been satisfied?
Thanks, Dr. Phil. Could you leave the armchair psychoanalysis out of this? I'm talking about what settings are best for playing games with my friends, not buying tickets to your self-help seminar.
I think you know that's a pretty big mischaracterization of what I'm advocating.
And that's not exactly what it was meant to be(well, not of you specifically, mind you, just happens to be the contrast to what was put forth as the one's side), as it was a response to just such a mis-characterization from jdrakeh? Because I'm pretty sure that was my intent. Did you not notice where I said:
Probably. Let's try not playing to the extremes here, it's probably not going to get us anywhere.
I don't mind being misunderstood, but it's kind of hard to be sure what you're reading. I don't mind trimming quotes, that's fine, but in this case, it makes me wonder if you bothered to understand what I said. Did you see it at all?
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Thanks, Dr. Phil. Could you leave the armchair psychoanalysis out of this? I'm talking about what settings are best for playing games with my friends, not buying tickets to your self-help seminar.
If you want advice on what to do with your friends, then you should start a post about it, and describe your friends. Then we might get somewhere. Me, I'm just trying to explain something I feel you're not understanding, and since by your own words you don't seem to have experienced it in your group enough to be able to empathize with another point of view, I suggested some other way to broaden your horizons. If you don't want to do that, fine, but you needn't be insulting. You can reject the suggestion, I won't force it upon you. But think of how it looks to me. And it'll probably look bad to the mods, so let's end this here before it gets us some red text.
Last edited by Bumbles; 7th July 2009 at 03:26 AM..
Did you read my posts? I'm pretty explicitly saying (I said it in two different posts, I think) that I'm not expecting the DM to buy *anything*; rather, I'm suggesting that a "new" DM with experienced players (who know their canon) could run a campaign in one of the "undeveloped" areas or regions that have not seen much canon support. It's not just about FR fans.
Okay, so you're not saying that a new DM should buy the entire product line, just that they shouldn't run a game in 'developed' areas of the Realms until they do. Got it.
As absurd as a DM who can't be bothered to learn a setting at all before playing in it, with players who know and expect more authenticity out of it?
Nobody here has advocated running FR without learning it. People have mentioned running FR out of the grey box only or with only core setting books, yet somehow several posters have turned that into "Not doing research!" several times now, which is exactly the kind of ridiculous canon lawyering that I think the OP was on about.
Primal goes so far as to say that "new DMs" should limit their activities to undefined areas of the Realms, with the implication being that they aren't qualified to DM a Realms game in 'developed' areas until they know it inside and out (which, of course, requires the aforementioned investment of years and money that I alluded to). He even clarified this, so I'd be 100% certain to understand his position.
Nothing says "Welcome to our hobby!" like telling people that they're doing it wrong and to go play in the kiddie pool until they buy up a product line and slavishly adhere to every last bit of it. I miss the days when people were encouraged to take a FRPG setting and make it their own.
Back to your arguements. (Essentially what, two people on one side and two on another? Poor threads ballooned out and people probably think there are dozens of different people these last few pages as opposed to did not did so arguements...)
jdrakeh, please do me a favor, go back and read post 266, where I already pointed out that one person missed the important line, that way I can avoid repeating myself. Thanks in advance!
Please go back and read post 266, where I already pointed out that one person missed the important line, that way I can avoid repeating myself. Thanks in advance!
I just did that and edited my post accordingly to remove a reference to "you" (i.e., Bumbles) — it doesn't, however, make the rest of my post any less germane.
Okay, so you're not saying that a new DM should buy the entire product line, just that they shouldn't run a game in 'developed' areas of the Realms until they do. Got it.
No, I'm saying that if you have veteran FR players (or even DMs) sitting at your table, it might be wise to run a game in one of the undeveloped areas -- just as it would be wise to do that with a group of Eberron fans who know more about Eberron that you -- the DM -- do. Especially if you know they're "diehard" fans.
No, I'm saying that if you have veteran FR players (or even DMs) sitting at your table, it might be wise to run a game in one of the undeveloped areas -- just as it would be wise to do that with a group of Eberron fans who know more about Eberron that you -- the DM -- do. Especially if you know they're "diehard" fans.
and what I am saying is if you want people to 'get into' the realms you need to stop all of that way of thinking...or it will be a dead setting. Luckly WotC thought of that and bang 100 year jump.
You see your whole post screams "GO over there adults play in this section"
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
and what I am saying is if you want people to 'get into' the realms you need to stop all of that way of thinking
It's not the job of the players to want that, is it? Publishers might, but player interests may not be the same, and as such, the two may come into conflict.
So it becomes a question, can we do X to please Y without offending Z?
Which is something tough to answer.
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Luckly WotC thought of that and bang 100 year jump.
Lucky for them perhaps. But if they weren't careful they could end up like Sony and its changes to the Star Wars MMO. Or the reaction against 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4 edition. Or...well, the list goes on. For every Ultimates line, there's a risk of failure. (And I honestly think the Ultimates line has played out for Marvel.)
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You see your whole post screams "GO over there adults play in this section"
I think we might want to avoid this kind of characterization. I'd give an example, but the last time I did that, it lead to more misunderstanding, so I'll just ask that this kind of thing not be done.
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