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The thing is if you play by canon, it is not possible within the logical purview of a D&D campaign to ever be a truly important figure in the Realms.
QFT...
However to be devils advacate here...in theory a VERY epic game, say 28+ level PCs could become major movers and shakers up there with Elminster...my problem is I want my PCs to have that spot light at say 12-15th level (legendary levels by 2e)
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
To become important in the scope of the 3E Realms, you had to play beyond the sweet spot of the game into the levels that the game did poorly, and even into epic levels that were even worse.
To become important in the scope of the 3E Realms, you had to play beyond the sweet spot of the game into the levels that the game did poorly, and even into epic levels that were even worse.
In principle one can play 4E D&D, while using the Forgotten Realms fluff + canon from 3E/3.5E and 2E.
One of my FR "canon lawyer" friends is doing exactly that. He really hated what WotC did to the 4E version of Forgotten Realms, and hence is using all the older FR splatbooks from 3E/3.5E and even some earlier ones from 2E AD&D for his own "canon strict" FR game using 4E rules.
And have you read the Elminster novels? All of them?
Are you aware that quite a lot of Ed's texts have been heavily edited, modified and even rewritten in parts? 'Spellfire' is the prime example of this, but he's said a lot has been edited or modified down the years.
Me? I love details and tidbits, and my players do so too -- for us they provide fun, and I feel all the "extra" work is worth it. Besides, that attention to detail and a thousand tales is what originally "hooked" me to FR -- when 4E FR got rid of it, I don't feel the same "spirit" is there anymore.
In principle one can play 4E D&D, while using the Forgotten Realms fluff + canon from 3E/3.5E and 2E.
One of my FR "canon lawyer" friends is doing exactly that. He really hated what WotC did to the 4E version of Forgotten Realms, and hence is using all the older FR splatbooks from 3E/3.5E and even some earlier ones from 2E AD&D for his own "canon strict" FR game using 4E rules.
Ironically, if he's ignoring the FR 4e setting changes, he's not playing to canon at all (unless he's playing in the setting pre-spell plague, rather than pretending it doesn't happen).
Ironically, if he's ignoring the FR 4e setting changes, he's not playing to canon at all (unless he's playing in the setting pre-spell plague, rather than pretending it doesn't happen).
That's true and ironic.
In my friend's case, 4E Forgotten Realms doesn't exist. His "canon lawyering" only goes up to the last few novels and splatbooks released in the 3.5E era. As far as he is concerned, his "Forgotten Realms" is more or less a complete static entity now. That is, unless WotC starts writing prequel novels in Forgotten Realms.
Actually becoming a power player in the realms is not just impossible because those echelons are populated by wizards at least in their mid to high twenties. It is because the intricate conspiracies and organizations that exist are ancient and it would be impossible for players to navigate those plots without bogging the game down to politics based more on lore and knowledge than power. To have true power would mean arranging truces and alliances with dozens of powergroups and individual powerbrokers. FR is too complicated at a political level. It is probably the way it should be in a world filled with nigh-immortal or undead archmages and a very large and active pantheon. But in its canon form it simply does not allow for the base concepts of epic tier gameplay as defined by 4E.
Actually becoming a power player in the realms is not just impossible because those echelons are populated by wizards at least in their mid to high twenties. It is because the intricate conspiracies and organizations that exist are ancient and it would be impossible for players to navigate those plots without bogging the game down to politics based more on lore and knowledge than power. To have true power would mean arranging truces and alliances with dozens of powergroups and individual powerbrokers. FR is too complicated at a political level. It is probably the way it should be in a world filled with nigh-immortal or undead archmages and a very large and active pantheon. But in its canon form it simply does not allow for the base concepts of epic tier gameplay as defined by 4E.
Good point. Though I have no idea what my FR "canon lawyer" friend is doing to address this issue. Most likely he will just move this sort of stuff up to a "post-epic" level, such as over level 40 or 50.
People seem to be making the assumption that the only way to hold power in Faerún is by personal might, be it at arms, magic or otherwise. This is blatantly false. You can be a mover and shaker in the Realms from the start, if you want and your DM wants that sort of game. I'd suggest the brilliant book Power of Faerún, written by Ed Greenwood and Ed Boyd, if you want a whole books worth of ideas on how to play the political game, and set about bringing your PC's to power. You won't become ruler of Cormyr by teleporting into the throne room and slaying Alusair Obarskyr. Got to play the political game, finding allies etc. That seems far more interesting to me.
That said, if you wanted a game where you could come to power through personal might, just set the game in the Border Kingdoms. They are described in Power of Faerún as "The most favoured destination for adventurers who want to proudly and boldly conquer a realm or establish their own kingdom... Few folk go there except those who want to carve out a place for themselves with a sword." Sounds fun to me!
I'm reading the Twilight War by Paul S. Kepm. I'm onto book II, Shadowstorm. It's a story about Sembia, Shadovar, Shades of different sorts and other worldly entities.
I never read one of the characters wondering, "Why isn't X taking care of this." From the point of view of the character, they are the stars of the book. If asked a question about, "Hey Cale, why don't we just get El and the 7 to handle this. This isn't thieves work." to which Cale would reply, "Perhaps not but IT'S MY STORY."
A GM who is unwilling to make the Realms his is doing his players a disservice. Every edition of the game notes that the GM should make changes as his campaign needs. No one from the WoTC police is going to come to your house and show you how to play.
Like some others mentioned here, I'm using the pre 4e setting in the year 137X (and I pick X because I know it's after the Rage of Dragons but haven't decided where I'll actually start it.)
The player's don't care. They're too busy enjoying the game. They've travelled to Ardeep, the High Forest, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Luskan, and the great desert of Anauroch. They're too busy playing and having fun as opposed to worrying about how its supposed to be.
Good point. Though I have no idea what my FR "canon lawyer" friend is doing to address this issue. Most likely he will just move this sort of stuff up to a "post-epic" level, such as over level 40 or 50.
Since he's using 4e, a very different game system than older D&D, he could just stat the Big Good Nice Guys/Gals like Elminster as, say, Paragon Tier Solos with a high Ritual Caster level. That way if the PCs reach Epic level they could be more powerful than the NPCs...
No I meant is as Cale is a powerful Epic character who does not need someone to upstage him, he upstages others.
Note: Erevis Cale is not a Mary Sue or other type of badly written super character. I personally consider him one of the best written characters in the realms (and Kemp one of the few FR novel writers who can actually, you know, write!).
No I meant is as Cale is a powerful Epic character who does not need someone to upstage him, he upstages others.
Note: Erevis Cale is not a Mary Sue or other type of badly written super character. I personally consider him one of the best written characters in the realms (and Kemp one of the few FR novel writers who can actually, you know, write!).
And yet in every other series, like the Year of Rogue Draogns... E and the Seven Sisters are not stepping in and going, "Hey, we got this. Relax."
Cale was one example. It'd be easy to pull dozens of others with the numerous books behind the series.
Hell, one of the things nice about Cale as an example, is that he's "First of Five", showcasing that the gods often have multiple favorites. Even if there are super NPCs and the players want to have similiar roles, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to.
The second the players make characters, the cannon of the setting is broken.
Well they are novels. Mind you the Rage of Dragons incident made absolutely no sense up until Dragons of Faerun explained it as Tiamat and Xymor moving in the realms. Why on toril did none of the archmages notice that the doomsday device was triggered? Surely there could be no bigger plot at that moment on Faerun than what Sammaster was doing it.
Badly written RSEs are alas another bane of the Realms.
Not really. It is not fun to be the king of some piss poor track of land in the middle of nowhere. The border kingdoms are a bandaid.
Well, I don't find raising an army and conquering an area boring myself. If you wanted to try to take over a place like Cormyr though, you best have one heck of an army. And maybe Sembia working with you. It's doable, just a lot harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeGKushner
I'm reading the Twilight War by Paul S. Kepm. I'm onto book II, Shadowstorm. It's a story about Sembia, Shadovar, Shades of different sorts and other worldly entities.
I never read one of the characters wondering, "Why isn't X taking care of this." From the point of view of the character, they are the stars of the book. If asked a question about, "Hey Cale, why don't we just get El and the 7 to handle this. This isn't thieves work." to which Cale would reply, "Perhaps not but IT'S MY STORY."
A GM who is unwilling to make the Realms his is doing his players a disservice. Every edition of the game notes that the GM should make changes as his campaign needs. No one from the WoTC police is going to come to your house and show you how to play.
Like some others mentioned here, I'm using the pre 4e setting in the year 137X (and I pick X because I know it's after the Rage of Dragons but haven't decided where I'll actually start it.)
The player's don't care. They're too busy enjoying the game. They've travelled to Ardeep, the High Forest, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Luskan, and the great desert of Anauroch. They're too busy playing and having fun as opposed to worrying about how its supposed to be.
I think I love you. Thank you for bringing up the fact that every edition does have notes that the GM should firstly, change the game to his needs, and secondly, that they should make the PC's the stars. The 3rd Edition FRCS even has an in universe explanation, from Elminster himself, as to why they don't meddle in everything (and just to counter the inevitable response, his explanation doesn't contain 'I'm busy doing more interesting things')
Well they are novels. Mind you the Rage of Dragons incident made absolutely no sense up until Dragons of Faerun explained it as Tiamat and Xymor moving in the realms. Why on toril did none of the archmages notice that the doomsday device was triggered? Surely there could be no bigger plot at that moment on Faerun than what Sammaster was doing it.
Badly written RSEs are alas another bane of the Realms.
But from the point of view of the characters, it doesn't need to make sense.
And as far as 'Sammaster' being the big, the great thing is, the Forgotten Relams IS big enough that other things could have been going on. After all, in the Cale triology, the Sojournor was doing his thing with the ole Ring of Fire. In the Archwizards Return, El has a hand in there I believe? In Thay, things are always going on.
The Realms are too big to sit back and go, "Yeah, these guys will take care of it."
Not that the players should ever be thinking that in the first place. If players are thinking that, it's because a bad GM trained them to think that.
The problem with this is that FR got too heavy by pandering to this base who wanted more detail heaped upon more detail, which raised the bar for entry into FR beyond what a new/casual player could stand. This puts the owners of FR in the lose-lose situation of continuing to pander to the base and turn away new customers or nuke the setting to open it up to new players and cheese off all the stalwarts.
From what I hear, the writers were campaigning for a reset to ease their burdens, and that settled it, if it wasn't settled already.
Frankly, though, that's not the consumer's problem - that's the owner's problem. And if it's gotten too big, then sunset the setting and start something new. Leave it alone for those that enjoy it. Alternatively, leave it alone for a few years, and then return to it.
The problem is, IMO, TSR and WotC overmilked the FR cash cow. So, they got a new cow and put the FR name on it. No now there are those that like the new cow, and those that don't. Split fan base.
That way if the PCs reach Epic level they could be more powerful than the NPCs...
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